FORD SENIOR PLAYERS CHAMPIONSHIP

July 11, 2002

Hale Irwin

DAVE SENKO: Hale, thanks for joining us. 64, which is the best first round in tournament history.

HALE IRWIN: Well, some history today.

DAVE SENKO: Maybe just some thoughts on that 64, and then we'll get your birdies and get some questions.

HALE IRWIN: Well, I think you kind of have to go back a few tournaments to sort of preface what I'm about to say, simply because I think the last month or so, my game has been almost there, not quite there. It's been sort of a frustrating time. I've been pushing a lot of buttons trying to get it over the hump and just not doing so.

I tried today, rather than try to hit it farther, for example, try to hit it not as far. Rather than try to hit it real close, I just tried to hit it up into a target area. So I tried to take some of the pressure, some of the anxiety off of today's round. That was what I was trying to do going in.

You could say, "Well, stupid, why don't you do that all the time?" It's not quite that easy. When you're out there and you hit it, all of a sudden you're out of the box so quickly with four birdies in a row. Now it's sort of like, okay, pedal to the medal, let's really golf well, how much better can you go? I was going at full speed and didn't even know it.

What I tried to do is just maintain that equilibrium, maintain that pace, maintain the status quo, and for today that status quo was very, very good.

The big difference is that I drove the ball very well today. I've been driving it nicely. My iron game came around tremendously today. I hit a lot of really close shots. Question mark is still how well my putting is. Hit the ball so close I don't know how I'm putting.

DAVE SENKO: 22 putts.

HALE IRWIN: Well, it's hard to miss foot-and-a-half length putts. But, yes I did put those short putts well.

Dave reminds me; I had 22 putts. I did putt the short putts well.

Yesterday, I did make a minor adjustment in my putting. I brought my left elbow in just a little bit closer to my body because I've been pushing a lot of putts. I think my elbow was out and it was leading my blade to the right. The stroke felt fine, but all of the results were to the right. I tried to tuck it in, which allows the blade to come back more. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. I think that certainly helped out today.

The greens are nice, a nice speed. You don't have to have a lot of hit on it, so I was able to stroke through it and kind of work through that problem in a very, very positive way today.

DAVE SENKO: Birdies, starting at 1.

HALE IRWIN: 1, I hit an 8-iron to within probably nine feet, making that.

I hit a 3-wood off the second tee and a pitching wedge to within five feet, making that.

My third shot at No. 3 was with a sand iron from 91 yards, and I hit it to within four feet.

Then I played just a short -- I mean, a little 4-iron at the next hole. Almost made a 1. I was about a foot from the hole. Just rolled right over the edge.

Saved par at 5 after missing the green with a 7-iron, to the right, and pitched it past just a foot or so, making that.

Hit a 4-wood off the sixth hole on a pitching wedge to within four feet of the hole making for birdie.

Third shot at No. 7, from 76 yards, I put it to within a foot of the hole, tapping that in for birdie. I hit driver, 5-iron, sand wedge.

Then hitting a 6-iron at No. 8 to within ten feet of the hole and missing that.

But I made virtually the same putt at the ninth hole for a birdie, hitting a 6-iron into there, as well. Made about a 10-foot birdie putt for 29.

Now I'm trying to go from the ninth green to the 10th tee without having to turn in the card, going through the people, understanding that this is nine holes and I'm trying to make this one continuum; so I can keep that momentum going. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is take that momentum and all of that stuff and not have an end to it, but try to extend it.

I hit it -- tried to play the 10th hole aggressively. Hit a driver right off the 10th tee. Thought I hit it perfectly, didn't quite get down to the fairway, and then I played a wedge just on front of the green and got a par there.

Played a great 3-wood off the tee at 11. Hit a good aggressive 9-iron probably 25 feet past the hole at 11 and didn't birdie there.

Then I hit a little thin an 8-iron at 12. Hit it a little thin. It hit the bank and came back in the water. So I proceeded to put on the rain suit, take the shoes and socks off, pull up the pants and give it a whack. The mystery was -- well the decision there was: Do I go back to the short tee? Because that was a yellow hazard; in other words, a water hazard and I would have had to go back to the short tee, the drop area and chances of making 4 were not particularly, I wouldn't think.

So the real problem was that my ball was resting on a rock, and it was about, oh, an inch or so, two inches maybe submerged in the water.

So I felt if I could just take all of that muck and rock and stuff and get it out, and then hopefully get it up on the green, but if I could just get it up on the bank, then I would have a better chance of saving one of those shots and I did. I got it out. Pitched it to within two feet of the hole and made that for a 4.

So I felt like I saved a shot there, but I didn't birdie the 13th hole with the next drive. I hit it to the right. Just didn't do it well.

But a nice drive and 6-iron at 14 for birdie, making a 10-foot putt.

Hit a 6-iron at No. 15 to within four feet, making that for a birdie.

I bogeyed 16, hitting a 4-wood off the tee. And I laid it back a little too far and now I had a 4-iron to the green and I pulled it and missed a ten-foot par putt.

Did not birdie -- what's that hole, 17.

I thought I hit a great 3-wood, 6-iron at No. 18 to within five feet of the hole making for a birdie.

So, as you can see, I didn't have a whole lot of putts that were outside of four or five feet most of the day. The longest putt was probably the ninth hole, and that was probably 10 or 12 feet.

Q. A little incredible to shoot 64 and the two par 5s you didn't birdie.

HALE IRWIN: Well, throw two bogeys in there. But I'm very pleased with the day. Again, it was not a perfectly-played day, but then it was not that particularly easy to play today, either. There was some wind out there. There was some difficult hole locations. There was some iffy shots, and to come out of it with -- you can say it's a 32-32. Sounds pretty straightforward stuff. That's the same as 64. But 29-35, still, pretty bizarre. But still, it's 18 holes, it's done. It's 10 birdies in one round of golf is a lot of birdies, so I'm very pleased with the birdie production today.

Q. All of the great iron shots, is it possible that that water shot was your best of the day or one of best?

HALE IRWIN: Well, there are a lot of good shots today in terms of maybe prioritizing those good shots or the management of that probably was good. Had I not gotten them out of there, we might be saying, "Well, that was stupid. I should have gone back to the short tee."

I tend to generally be very conservative on those. Most of the time, there's a good chance that you could screw up, and the biggest problem there was that I had the rock because I had to hit the rock, and then the ball. The rock was hitting the ball. The club never touched the ball. And it was a rock, probably about, that big around, probably the size of an egg, and that's what the ball was resting on.

I stepped down in the water and the ball is sort of floating around a little bit. So I had to be very careful that I didn't change the lie of that thing in trying to get bare feet down in that muck. I told the video guys, I said, "Boy, I sure hope I don't cut myself because by tomorrow, my foot will fall off from infection, I'm sure."

Q. What did you hit?

HALE IRWIN: I hit a sand wedge.

It's funny, I haven't done that in a long time, hit a ball out of water. But wouldn't you know, yesterday, I'm talking to the amateurs and they are saying: "Did you ever hit a ball out of water?" Go figure. So I follow up today with hitting a ball out of water.

But there is a technique. I think I tried to hit the front of the ball, because once you enter the water, it becomes a rudder; it goes down. In this case, I didn't want to necessarily hit the ball. I needed to hit behind the rock just to move the whole stuff out. I got a little wet.

Q. (Inaudible.)

HALE IRWIN: Well, if I was -- if I'm in water like that, the ball is here and there's that much water, I would probably try to hit front of the ball, because when I enter the water, it goes down. But if the ball is just resting, then I try to hit the ball. But just depending how deep you are -- now this, the ball was submerged, and I'm guessing it was about a foot or so under. But the rock was back there, so I didn't want to necessarily hit here because then it might just bounce; I needed to hit back here and get all of that stuff. I thought I could get farther, but I think I took so much junk that the ball just didn't go very far.

Q. This is your third 64 here, including the famous one here in the third round in '99. Is there any way to judge, was it this better than the other two 64s? 64 is good anytime, but do you have a feel for what was the best?

HALE IRWIN: Today's round was so packed into that front nine, 29. There's 7 birdies in nine holes versus the other ones that I think were maybe more spread out.

Now, I didn't play badly on the back nine, but when I shot the other 64s, one round, I think I may have had a bogey, and the other one, I don't think I had any bogeys. Today I had two bogeys. So probably those others, in terms of the entire round, were probably better played, but this one was really condensed into that front nine, and then a good finish, birdieing the 18th hole. But again, the point made, I didn't birdie two of the par 5s.

Q. How much different are those two par 5s on the front playing, with the newer tees and the longer holes?

HALE IRWIN: 3 certainly is different. In the past, with the drives that I've hit today and yesterday, and in the Pro-Am, I would have been wondering what club I'm going to use to go at the green. There's no choice now. Particularly into the wind, so we don't know.

The new tee at 7, it's a little different. Again, it's more the wind on these holes. Even in the past, if you're into the wind.

I'm not real crazy about the new tee at 3 and I'll tell you why. Simply because before, if you wanted to go at that green, you had to make a real choice. You had to walk a fine line to get that ball on the green. You could run off behind the tree; so you go into the bunker if you hit it to the left. There were a lot of things that could go wrong in trying to go aggressive.

Now with that tee back there, you don't worry about that. Now you think about your third shot. So, in some respects, they took away a little bit of the mystery.

Sort of like the 18th hole, Doug Tewell and I, we were talking about the bunker in front of the green. Now if you were to hit it out to the right, it would be interesting to see a guy maybe shape a shot and run it onto the green.

Now, what I think is sort of an exciting shot or something that could be pulled off if the guy has got the talent, now you are taking that talent way and saying, "You've got to go over here and put it on the green."

Q. We've been talking with people about low scores on the SENIOR TOUR. If you could have maintained your pace, I guess you could have shot 58 today. Did you think about anything like that?

HALE IRWIN: Oh, absolutely. I don't mind saying I putt one in -- probably for a goal, making the putt at 9 was kind of fun. You don't shoot 20-something very often. I thought, well, with 10 -- not trying to get out too far, but I thought if I can continue this momentum, I know 10 and 11, we were playing short irons.

So I thought, okay, be aggressive at 10. If I could hit the ball down there like I did yesterday in the Pro-Am; and I hit a good drive I hit it right where I wanted to, but there was a little more wind into it than I had anticipated. So the ball carried the bunkers, but it kicked left, rather than kicking down to the right, it kind of stayed up and sort of stayed in the rough. Then a real tight pin position, I didn't have a chance to go at the hole.

But then at 11, okay, fine, that's your third par. Don't worry about it. Now I'm looking right down the barrel at 9. But 125 yards and the wind is going right-to-left. If you're short, with a wedge, then you kick yourself all the way to kingdom come; so, I hit a little nine. A wedge would have made it, but it's too early to be stupid.

That same hole location a while back on a 64, I made a 2 in '99 because I holed a 9-iron. Today it was an in-betweener. If I had been two or three yards farther up or two or three yards farther back, it could have changed how I played that shot.

So it's not always, I lost the momentum, but it's sometimes how works out. And if you want to say, you lost momentum, it certainly was at 12 when I hit the 8-iron. It was only an 8-iron, but I just hit it thin. Didn't hit it well.

Q. Some guys have said there are various reasons for low scores on the SENIOR TOUR, McCumber was here and said that he thinks a lot has to do with people being more at ease with themselves and with their golf game at this age. Do you have any thoughts on why we are seeing a man shoot 60 last week, 64 today?

HALE IRWIN: I think a lot of it, certainly Mark makes a point; that well may be the case.

I thought the 60 last week was played on not a particularly long golf course, but you still have to hit the ball well to shoot 60 on putt-putt; you've got to make putts. So it's not like these are -- oh, well, that's just ordinary.

I think technology is allowing us to hit the ball much farther than we used to. I think the ball itself does not curve the way it used to. So if you were to hit one a little off-center or off-line, it doesn't seem to want to get out of there and off-line as much. I know other players have commented: It's hard to work the ball the way we once did.

So between going a little farther and a little straighter, and then playing, you know, superbly-conditioned golf courses, you're going to find that. It's going to happen. I think there's a lot of -- I don't feel like from my regular TOUR days to my SENIOR TOUR days, you know, I had that pause that refreshes: Oh, I'm not nervous anymore, I've got a new life and all that. I think I just went right on and continued playing. And maybe Mark, who was out of the game for a while, or someone like that, they may have that new lease on life.

For me, it was just a continuum of the same thought process.

Q. How comfortable are you on this course? I think now you have 19 or 20 rounds in the 60s.

HALE IRWIN: I don't know, I'm not very comfortable, it doesn't sound like. (Laughs).

The only comment, I think that -- and this may sound stupid -- I think it's kind of a tough course. I think because of that, I play it very carefully. I think it makes me more aware of being a little more focused, maybe being a little more intent upon the right shot, rather than just sort of pulling a club and hitting it.

If you're not -- good example is No. 12. If that's a sand trap, I'm not too worried about it. But the lake, if we have -- like the hill hole No. 5, or 6 -- if 6 doesn't get your attention, you're nuts. Doyle today, he hit it in the fairway, hit a pitching wedge in the middle of the green and he went in the water.

So you have to be real careful on these holes and you have to make some assumptions. I assume that the sixth green was firm with that back pin position. You'd better assume it's firm. My assumption was correct, and his looked good in the air, but when it trickled over and went in the water, there were three balls this far apart in the same spot. So there were two other guys that did the same thing that Allen did.

So I think you have to make some assumptions, and those assumptions had better be correct. Otherwise, it can get away from you here.

Q. Are you over the experience of Bethpage Black?

HALE IRWIN: I was over that Friday. I just made the comment to Doug today, we were talking about the course and stuff and I said, "You know, that Bethpage, I was honored to be there, I was delighted to be there, I was thrilled to be there, I really was. But I wasn't playing well." I'll tell you that right now. I don't care if you're 57 years old or 27, you'd better have been on your game at Bethpage, or you were going to be out of the door; and I was out the door in a heartbeat.

But, if that is the picture of golf in the future, I'm glad I played the bulk of my golf in the past. I've tried to make this analogy: Very often times we'll see painted pictures of great holes and/or what you call great holes, maybe it's the 10th at Winged Foot that had the tree and all that, or you might find them on place mats. I wouldn't put any of them on my place mat. (Laughter.) It was just a huge golf course. I found it to be just brute force.

And I don't think that is the complete picture of the game of golf. I think you must have finesse in the game. Just like going out to 18, just what I'm talking about, I think that you have to have holes and shots that are required to shape a shot; right or left, it doesn't matter.

But just to get up and if we're trying to -- we keep using the generic term, Tiger-proof, you're just falling into the hands of the guys that hit it the longest. Just take another set of bunkers and put them out there where I have to deal with them, and then we'll see. Then they have to shape shots and then they have to play them.

I'm not saying this against Tiger because he is clearly the best player in the world, but I'm just saying other players that just beat the ball. If I played on the regular tour, I would probably hit the ball farther. I would change my grip. I would play a Rocky Thompson 6-foot driver or something. I would learn to hit it farther. But I don't think that's the way I like to play golf. Senior players didn't learn to play that way. We played shaping shots.

Today's technology and the kids coming out, they have learned to hit the ball so very, very hard, and it doesn't go off-line as much as the equipment that we had.

Q. Following up on that, what you just said, a lot of people are saying, you don't Tiger-proof a golf course by making it 9,000 yards or whatever; you're just playing into his hands. Why are more and more people trying to Tiger-proof golf courses by making them longer?

HALE IRWIN: I don't know. I haven't the slightest idea. It does not help golf by making golf courses 7,500 yards.

How do you feel about it? Let me ask you.

Q. I think it's crazy. U.S. Open, at Southern Hills, British Open at Lytham last year, I thought both those courses were set up just perfect, everybody can play. They had 150 people in the field, and, you know 80 of them had a chance at least. They were not monster -- they were long, but you had to hit shots. You had to hit it left-to-right, right-to-left, drive it to 290 and stop you could not go any further. I don't know why.

HALE IRWIN: I think this year's U.S. Open at Bethpage will go down as an enormous success because, A, Tiger won it. The best player in the world won the United States Open Championship.

Two, it was financially hugely successful. And unfortunately, that No. 2, has a great deal of bearing upon the game.

And unfortunately litigation has a great deal to do on what the USGA was going to allow or not allow. Wall Street is saying we want the ball to go long because we are shareholders; and the USGA, it's almost like they can't compete.

It's unfortunate, but that's the nature of the game right now. I don't see too many manufacturers coming out here -- if they were to give me a club or give me a driver, it would not be: This is a great putter; boy this is a tremendous 5-iron or this is a great utility club. They are going to hand you that driver because it needs to go a long ways.

You don't go buy a car because it goes slow. You go buy a car because it was a 5,000-cubic inch engine in it.

Q. John McEnroe was talking about tennis and he said if you want to improve the game, go back to the wooden rackets. Is that sort of what you're saying?

HALE IRWIN: I think they should go back to hickory shafts. (Laughter.) Not that far.

No, I think you're right, because just look at other sports. Look at tennis. He's bringing up tennis. Look at the gays that just, you don't find the serve-and-volley much anymore. They just serve, wait on the baseline and wait for it to come back, if it can come back, 125 - 130-mile-an-hour serves. How do you get out of the way, much less get it back? My wife plays tennis -- well, yeah.

It's fun to see rallies. That's why we like to watch the doubles. At least you see the ball go back and forth a couple of times.

I think as a player of the past, and certainly some of the present, I think when we had in place 10 and 15 years ago is probably where we need to kind of need to ratchet that back there. Because, yes, technology was still a part of it. We were getting some consistency with some golf balls, but we didn't have this trampoline effect in clubs and all of these things going on now that just bring the game going down to brute force and how low can you go.

I don't mind Bethpage. And my scores were -- I'm not embarrassed about what I shot; I just played poorly. But I like to see the golf course win sometimes. It's fun to see the game of golf win and not the players overpowering the game.

Q. (Inaudible.)

HALE IRWIN: He's making a tool of those wedges. Better check those grooves.

Q. Is every sport getting that way, in baseball they all want to hit home runs. Football now, everybody is huge and fast.

HALE IRWIN: In baseball, they brought in the fences. Now, personally, I think the greatest offensive play in baseball is the triple because there's a lot of action. But just watching a guy hit it over the fence and trot around the bases, I'd rather see an intentional walk. That's about as boring. But, you know, I think, give the big outfields.

We have to kind of realize: What are we trying to do in the game of golf? I'll speak to this sport because I don't know those games.

I think in golf, we need to have some identification with our fan base. We maybe getting away from that technology may be allowing us to get away from that fan base because the best players in the world are going to get more of a sense of that technological improvement, the capability of playing better than as the rank amateur. The harder you hit it -- you know, you can have the longest, baddest, biggest thing, but if you top it, it's still going to go 50 yards off the tee. It's not going to go 100. You've got to hit the ball in the center of the club to get all of this stuff, and it's not happening.

Q. This is interesting to me, because you play in a lot of Pro-Ams, and I played in one for the first time in a while about a year ago. I was just astounded at how far the other amateurs were hitting the golf ball. It's like 270 or they hit a bad shot and were mad about it. Are you saying amateurs are hitting the ball longer and straighter in your Pro-Ams?

HALE IRWIN: No. Not straighter. They hit it as frequently. It may be farther, marginally. It may be straighter, simply because the ball doesn't curve as much. Although, it's hard to say that sometimes.

But they are still taking as many shots. So I don't see where they really improve.

The average amateur, whatever that is; I have no idea what that is, if it's an 18 handicap. You take all of the handicaps and you throw them in the kettle what comes out, I don't know. But I think the average player is going to see proportionally less benefit than the best players.

Now, the better the amateur, I think the more results they are going to see. Not necessarily if you're a 36 handicap are you going to be hitting the ball 270. You might, but you're suffering a lot of other ills in your game, too.

I proposed for a long time, and I think we've heard Nicklaus, we've heard other players suggest that they just bring the ball back to where -- just bring it back five percent. It's a 7,000 yard golf course, five percent, you're bringing it back 250 yards. That's a lot. Or you're actually adding that. You're up to, whatever, 7,350 -- on the golf course just by bringing the ball back.

It does not have to be much. It doesn't have to be a tour ball. You can still play your Titleist, your Callaway, Nike, whatever you want to play, you just bring the velocity back a little bit. That's fairly simple, I think.

Q. (Inaudible)?

HALE IRWIN: I don't know. You call. You ask. I don't get an answer either. I think it's Wall Street saying no.

Q. (Inaudible)?

HALE IRWIN: It's a great little golf course. I think they have changed some things, whether they are improvements or not, I don't know.

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