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TURNING STONE RESORT CHAMPIONSHIP

September 19, 2007

Tom Fazio

VERONA, NEW YORK

THE MODERATOR: This is Tom Fazio, designer of the golf course, he's going to open it up to questions.
TOM FAZIO: It's kind of neat, I've been out touring the golf course and watching some of the players - some of the real good players and some of the not so good players. It's kind of fun to see how a golf course plays for all different level of players.
For me as a designer, you know, it's interesting, usually the questions I get relate to how does the golf course relate for the best players in the world. And it's certainly a very important part of our design process in every case, whether we have a tournament programmed or not.
Because in terms of acceptability, in terms of how people judge and relate to golf courses, if so-called better players don't feel it's a great test and a good venue and good environment wherever it may be, there is always that question - does it measure up?
But also equally important to that on the other side is how does the golf course play for the rest of the golfing world. And the enjoyability, fun, beauty and environment that a golf course is in has always been one of my soft spots, as well.
And after many decades, I actually stopped using the actual years because it makes me feel old, so I talk about decades now. Sounds a little bit better. But it is kind of interesting to see how golf has changed. Not substantially as much as some people would think, and I'm sure you'll have some questions about the technology and/or how the golf courses play differently.
But certainly to come back to a facility and back to a place when visually when I walk out there, I still see dirt. I still see in some cases flat terrain. Because the visuals in my mind are flashbacks.
So for me as a designer, part of the challenge and part of my job and even part of the, I guess it's the challenge of my life, is how do you take a raw piece of land and put it into a finished product that looks like it's been there for a long time as well as kind of accepted by everyone to be a great place to be.
So it was kind of fun to be out there today, walking around, watching all the players. Certainly seeing the condition of the golf course is wonderful. Again, being able to reminisce about it just was not so long ago that we had crops out there and we were moving dirt around and shaping and creating golf holes.
It's kind of, for me, it's very different. In fact, Ray invited me to play today in the Pro-Am, and as much as I would have liked to have done that, if I did, I couldn't get to enjoy it as much as I get to enjoy it, because when I walk golf courses I walk backwards from greens back to the tee. Watch how the golf course sets up, walk across golf holes. I had a great day, I haven't made a bogey today, either.
So by touring the property and getting to visit a lot of people, I very much enjoy stopping and talking to the gallery guards, I guess they're called. I don't know the exact terminology for them, but all the volunteers and people out there working the tournament. Certainly without them, we don't have a golf tournament.
It's kind of interesting to ask where did that person hit it, where did this pro hit it, and where did the amateurs hit it? And they're so into golf, it's kind of neat to see the marshals out there. I ran into two of them that have played here just recently, and gosh, they're so charged up, I think they just come here and volunteer forever just because they love it so much.
So from my standpoint, many times I'll go up to them, I won't even tell them who I am, and ask them questions and get their insight. Because sometimes it's a different answer if they know who I am. And every once in a while someone will walk up and recognize me and ask me to sign their hat or something. And it's kind of fun to talk to both groups of people, because you get a different perspective of what they see, and for me, it's just a fun day to be here. So I thought I'd start off with that.

Q. They talked about last year's B.C. Open, they lengthened the course a little bit, made it a little tougher, rough is a lot thicker. When you designed this course, did you design it in mind with hosting a PGA event and maybe how challenging this course was going to be when you designed it?
TOM FAZIO: Well, certainly it wasn't specifically designed for one golf tournament, that's for sure. It was designed, as I said earlier, like we do all golf courses. To know if we have a quality golf experience and if we have a quality golf course in relation to width is equally as important as length. And certainly have the uniqueness and character for what we envision in every golf course, any level of play could be played on those golf courses.
In our first discussions, actually interestingly enough for me coming to Atunyote, which wasn't named at the time when I was here. And we actually didn't even have the piece of land set aside for the golf.
I went and had a little interview with Ray and his staff, and he put me in a car and we drove around. I guess it was a four-wheel drive vehicle because it was wet that particular day. And we went around looking at land and different places, talking about what would make a golf course great.
And it is kind of reminiscent to me of how the old golf courses were done. Most, I'd say 90% of the time I walk into a place and, Okay, here is the piece of land, here are the metes, bounds, descriptions and elevations. Okay, what can you put in that space?
Well, in this particular case, we had literally areas to pick from, so that was kind of fun. It made it interesting. Just knowing the first day here the feel of and for me as a designer, what I'm looking at almost never look individually at a particular golf hole.
We don't have to come up with ideas for golf holes and then go try to design them into the field. Start by the overall environment. What is the setting, and what is the little basic things like how do you get to a starting point. And that also determines many factors of how the project gets started, and it's got placement.
So here at Atunyote it was almost a classic case study of design as to say, well, here's what we'd like to see in this particular piece of property. Actually had some metes and bounds on one side of it, but over on the side of number 13 and 14 were parking and some of the patron hospitality area, that boundary line is flexible. We could have done whatever we wanted to do. So that kind of was a fun thing to do.
So we always knew that whatever choice of play whether it's just private golf, public golf, and/or tournament golf with the commitment, it was stated up front, any level of play could be played on that kind of golf course.

Q. From your original drawings back in 2002, how has that vision changed from what you showed at the press conference that year to what's out there today?
TOM FAZIO: Was that the year prior to starting? Well, even prior to starting, again the years kind of blend to me. See 2002, that seems like yesterday, but I know it isn't.
The vision never changes. The vision is always the finest possible golf setup. Now if you get specific individually per golf holes, most of the time the plans that we develop in the initial stages and that drawing we first show and say this is what the golf course is going to look like, generally the holes are in that location.
Generally they don't change much, but the detail does. Because we're really at the time not into showing details, angles of greens, pin placement location, depths of bunkers, edge of hazards and those kind of stages. They're the kind of detail things that we evolve through the process as we're building.
Many times we have to, we're in the process in that once we know where it's going to be, we're in the process of going through the detail of design. And little things which are major details but important, like how do the elevations of the water flows relate to fairway landing area, relate to the edge of the green, relate to a tee.
And even if you don't have that, like in this particular case there were not streams flowing through this property, but wouldn't that be a nice addition to the property? We certainly have the availability of water, and we certainly need a lake for storage and capturing our drainage. Because again, as we build the golf course, we actually collect our own water, and we collect it in underground drainage systems and it comes to central points. And we put it in the lake and recycle and use it again.
So we have the ability to take recycled water that comes from the sky and do lots things with it. Not just put it in a pipe underground and put it in the lake, but we can pick it up again, pump it to a high point and let it flow through either natural grades and/or contours that we build.
So that's the fun process about the design. You know, it's kind of like saying if you can vision, if I could get all of you here individually and say, Okay, let me have your ideas. What kind of golf hole do you like? Where would you like the hole to turn? And most people would say they like it to turn right, most people would say that. Tour players, most of them would like to see it turn left. But if you turn it right and you're going to have water on the hole, where would you like to see it?
Certainly the opportunities are endless, and that is one of the unique things about golf design and what we strive for. We strive to create distinctive, unique, special, one of a kind pieces. The PR people add other words to those word pieces and call them lots of different things. But my goal is always to have it very distinctive.
Again, throughout those decades of my career, I've had the opportunity to do a lot of golf courses. None of them look like this golf course. The next group, assuming I'm fortunate enough to live longer, none of them will look like this golf course. Why would you do it again, the same thing?
Obviously, you take the character and the style, but in the old days much golf architecture in America, golf is roughly only 120 years old, maybe now it's getting to be 130 from the beginning. Which is not a long time. And not many people knew about golf.
When golf was brought here by the Scots, mostly and some of the Irish and the UK countries, the UK Kingdoms of where golf kind of started the idea was a golf professional or someone who knew golf came over with the idea of building a golf hole in the early days of my career I used to hear the word Rodin greens, and Cardinal bunker, and all those old famous things that you can find in the British Isle golf courses. And people would come here to bring those ideas and incorporate them.
Well, we've had enough of those and plenty of those built. And now over the last, say, 50 to 75 years, five or six decades, we have so many golf courses we're always trying to create different styles. And certainly Turning Stone is a perfect example.
You have three different styles of golf courses already as part of the whole resort complex. Which makes golf very interesting. That's why golf can never be boring. If you're a golf nut, and you want to come to a place and enjoy this great environment of this region and area, you come to Turning Stone and look what you have the opportunity to do and play. And certainly there are endless opportunities.
So as a designer, I'm always looking to create that distinctive, and it is a work in progress as we're building it. It's not just a set of drawings. Two of my staff people here, actually they're here with me, they're out touring the golf course, they're looking at details.
You know, we're always refining, we're always upgrading. If you take the USGA and look at every golf event they've had, the USGA over the last hundred plus years at every venue, they go back, and even though they've been to Winged Foots and Marians and Oakmonts and other great facilities, they're always trying to add a little twist, make a little adjustment. Not necessarily change for the sake of change.
Not necessarily just for change sake, but golf has changed from the beginning from what we know here in America. So there's always the little things you look at. Always the things you do.
For us designing the course from the first drawing. The holes are there. I don't even remember what that drawing looked like. Chances are none of the bunkers are in the place that that drawing showed.

Q. It was actually pretty similar, I was surprised.
TOM FAZIO: But you may have seen an updating of that drawing as well. It could have been updated. I'm not sure.

Q. One of the few changes that appear, and, again, it can change, 18 seemed like at that time there was going to be more of a forced carry over the pond?
TOM FAZIO: In the detail, actually, 18 did show that. And we started looking at the detail of where we're bringing water into play. How even on the 6th hole and 12, and the stream on 10, and the stream on 11.
Originally, in fact you probably remember better than I do, but was the stream on 14 on that drawing on the left side of the fairway. It may not have been. If it was, it wasn't the original drawings or the so-called original concept, because that was added. Just the fact that we had the water feature at 12, and we had the opportunity to run more so-called water, recycle some water.
You have to get to the point of being concerned in the detail of golf becomes if you get too much of it, that can be boring. It can also be difficult and hard to play. And also not memorable, because all you do is remember streams and creeks.
So our idea is to create golf holes that visually flash in your mind. That when you go out and play a golf course, especially a place that has a total feel, and a total environment, it's like you walk here on the practice range, you stand on the practice range. And, gosh, you look around and look out to the facility and say, wow, this is really a special, neat facility T kind of flashes in your mind. You may not remember the detail of every green angle on the bunker, but it certainly flashes to a very distinctive place.
So again, part of the thing even today, we're out here looking at some details and we'll sit with Ray and say, Oh, you know, we have some opportunities to do this, do that. You know, we've lost a couple of trees just through construction and age, and the lightning and environmental change, number 8 on the right we've lost several trees. So we'll be replacing those.
Also even taking that right side tee shot landing area and where we've lost some trees in an old wooded area, we have to take out some stumps, grind them and upgrade the soils and play space there. Because when there is a totally wooded area, it could have been a mulched area, and a forested area. But as we lost the trees it becomes the combination of two things. So we're trying to get it more almost like the great environment we have in other places.

Q. Last year John Rollins won 19 under. Some of the guys are saying today if the conditions are as they are today, the 3 to 5 under each day. So maybe 12 -- if it's way under par, do you have a hard time with that?
TOM FAZIO: Not at all. And for several different reasons. I think that if you look at the Tour Championship last year, last week, I guess we only had 30 players. You look at those scores and that's a par 70.
So what was the final? 23. 23 was the winning score, and par 70, I believe it is. In theory that's for the winners who usually make those two par 5's missing on the average. So there could have been 8 more under par for that.
Granted there were a lot of issues with conditions and those kind of things. But it's certainly I think that if every tour event had super low scores, I think there would be a question mark as to is golf -- are golf courses too easy for this level of player? But it doesn't really bother me. Because I think it becomes certainly, I think, as the players mentioned -- I believe I was reading an interview, I can't remember who the player was just a couple of weeks ago. And they were talking about how much they enjoyed playing a golf course where they played and there was a lot of low scores. They said we wouldn't want to do that every week, but we enjoyed doing that.
And I think we'll see a little different score here this week just because of the rough. And there's ways that that could be done where the golf course could be made without changing it substantially.
So it doesn't really bother me. It's just another different way of looking at it. If we wanted to have a golf course, we could easily change that number by 8 shots on the overall score if you wanted to. We could just eliminate one of the par 5's, and call it a par 70. That's not difficult to do.
Just play the front tee, you know whether it's one of the other par 5's. So that's easy to do. I think in that particular case, and I think the venue here, I think the property is so dramatic and the environment's so good that the scoring -- the rough is not going to make that much difference to the winner because generally speaking the fellow who is going to win the tournament is playing the best. Maybe he's putting the best, that's true, but they generally are not hitting it far right or far left, and that's the reason why they win.

Q. How much can you tweak a course? How much can conditions tweak a course in terms of that? I mean, do you think you could take out like you say the leader's not, but?
TOM FAZIO: If you take the history of golf of how to do that, and if you just studied it yourself not even as a professional trying to figure it out. And you look at what's been done in the past other places.
For example, at Oakmont this year at the U.S. Open, we had the honor to work at Oakmont for five or six years preparing a golf course for this year's U.S. Open and last year at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot. We were involved with the refinements and the detail.
Now there's a par 72 golf course for the members, and they play it a par 70 for the Championship. So that's done in a lot of cases in golf.
But certainly with, especially today that the golf ball goes so much straighter, and the size of the clubs and the detail. So there's lots of different ways you can do that. We could literally take in the area of this climatic condition here where you have bentgrass fairways and Bluegrass roughs. And we have the bentgrass fairways designed and set up for a golf course that's playable, fun, enjoyable for every level of player. Maybe not as difficult for a tour level.
For example, we could have a U.S. Open here if the golf course is of that quality. But what happened what the USGA would require, and I don't speak for the USGA, even though I've done lots of renovations for U.S. Open golf courses. But you look at the history and their concern is the tee shot landing areas. They want to have a 23-yard fairway where the driving areas are. 30 years ago, that same location was 27 yards.
So there's been changes even in that evolution, because again, it only makes sense if the golf ball goes straighter because of clubs and technology, why wouldn't you adjust those narratives and widths for the best players.
Now for the majority of us, we don't really know the difference between 23 and 27. You know, 27's not wide enough. We want 30. So there are just so many different ways that that could be done, and you would do that. And it wouldn't necessarily be a change, it would be the process because that's what golf is about. That's how it has evolved forever, decade after decade.

Q. Some people talk about the short par 4, the short risk-reward par 4 as being the most exciting hole in golf. Best tournament hole. Did you consider that when you built Atunyote?
TOM FAZIO: Yes, not individually. And I agree with that. I've been building short par 4 golf holes before that became famous. That became the in thing, because lots of people have. It's not just me, but that's certainly that has the possibilities.
I think that personally, I think a long, hard par 3 is just as exciting in terms of the challenge. But it's just the great thing about golf there are no absolutes in golf. Especially in golf design. There are just so many opportunities.
It's like the reachable par 5. And that terminology became kind of en vogue in as early as the '70s. And prior decades in golf, par 5's were three-shot holes. Then with the conditioning and strength of the players in the Jack Nicklaus era, it became kind of reasonable. I can still remember Ray Floyd winning at the Masters, and I think every, not every, but most of the shots he hit were 5-woods to par 5's and reaching them in two.
Well, over the years, those, some of those second shots on those same golf holes for the next level of player or the next decade generation of player became 3-irons and 4-irons and 5-irons and 7-irons, and then the golf holes got adjusted and changed in length.
So to me I like the short par 4, reachable. I like the reachable 5's. I like the three-shot 5's. Though if you hear the details and do you the numbers, if you just sat down some day with a notepad and looked at today's tournament players and where they hit a golf ball and how far it goes and you were trying to design a golf hole for a certain type of golf shot, let's say. You want a tour player, wouldn't you like to see a tour player hit a driver and a 5-iron.
Let's assume we're not talking about wind. No wind in consideration, and no elevation change to deal with. So we're not in Denver at 6,000 feet or 5,000. We're not some other place. If you just do the math, today's tour player averages say - he is especially the young fellows, averages 300 to 310. And they hit a 5-iron from 190 to 215, average it to 200, and average the drive to 310. Add the two numbers together to make a par 5, and that's 510. And the yardage doesn't matter. It's the club selection what you want it to be.
We as golfers would look at a golf hole and say -- and sometimes tour players will do this, too, without seeing a golf course. Gosh, I'm not going to like that golf course. Look at that par 4, 510-yard par 4. But the detail of that is it's a driver and a 5-iron golf hole.
So we all in golf -- here's another little, I think interesting thing for all of us and you can use this with your friends. Take a golf hole that's considered to be a very hard, long par 4. And you think it's the hardest golf course on the golf course. And you don't like it because it's long and hard. Take your pencil and score card, just take your score card and your pencil and rub out that little numeral 4 and put a 5 down. For no other reason, it's a sight game now. Just put a 5 down there for what par is. You go out and play it, you'll play the hole totally different. You'll think it's an easy golf hole.
Now that's what we all do as golfers. It's so strange what we do with our mind and how we attack the game and look at the game.
Again, from dealing with players and listening to players, usually I show up at a golf tournament where I'm involved in a golf course that I've designed or been a part of, and usually show up at the beginning of the week. The minute the score card and pencils are handed out, I leave. Because I don't know who I'm going to run into, and if they didn't play well, it's my fault.
It's just human nature. That's kind of the thing. Why did you put that bunker, why did you put that creek there? Creek's in the wrong place. The golf hole's too hard, it's too narrow, whatever the issue is.
And the fun and the great thing, actually I believe for my side of the industry of golf, is that the uniqueness of it that there are no absolutes. And literally I look at it and say there are no rules in golf. Then when a USGA person looks at me they can show me on volumes of the rules of golf and I put the word design, because there are none.
For all the things you think about, and if I were to tell you that -- if I were to put up a plan and say okay, here's a plan. We're all going to be investors. We're going to create this golf course right here. You guys are all going to put up your money and we're going to go build it. We're going to have a fabulous place.
You look at that plan, you look at that routing like you did. First hole happens to hit over a road. A public road, there are buses because it's a resort area and the buses go by and you have to hit from the first tee out to the first fairway. You look at the front nine, and fifth hole and sixth hole are par 5's. Two in a row, two par 5's in a row. You look at it, the two par 3's in a row on the back nine back-to-back, 15 and 16.
Then I have to tell you, the weakest hole on the golf course is the 18th hole. All of you would get together and say has this guy ever designed a golf course before? Does he know what he's doing? That is Cypress Point. One of the greatest places in the world. You talk to people about golf, and they'll say Cypress Point is probably one of the best environments they'll ever go to. That's the routing and set up for Cypress Point.
You go to Pine Valley ranked No. 1 in the world decade after decade after decade. That is the number one place. History, all the critics and people say that. There is a golf course that I love. It's maybe my favorite, I would never design that golf course like that, because it's too hard, too difficult, it's unplayable for the majority of people. If you didn't know it was ranked number one and it just happened to be over here and you went out there and played it, and you were not a low handicapped player, you'd say never coming back here again. Probably wouldn't finish.
But you go there and now that you know it is number one, and it is considered the best and the greatest and everything, you just -- one of my favorite golf courses as well as Pine Valley is Piners Number two. And I had a little charity golf tournament there a few years ago, and it's fabulous. Original Donald Ross course, where he made his home and where he lived. And it was one of the first great golf resorts in America. And they have five or six golf courses.
I've been fortunate enough to design three of them now that they have eight golf courses. I had this charity event, and I was out watching making sure everything was going good for our visitors. And I watched a person hit a ball to the par 3 hole, hit it up to the front of the green, rolled it back to the false run and rolled down the hill. The next shot he chipped and scalded, went up the hill rolled it into the bunker. Got in the bunker, and hit it out rolled on the green where it started the first time. Chipped it up, missed it a couple of times and walked off and said isn't this a great golf course?
Had that been a brand-new golf course, brand-new, same golf hole, same contours, same grades, it's awful. It's golf, it's life, that's what it is. So we get used to that kind of thing.

Q. When is the first time you saw the finished product?
TOM FAZIO: The first time I saw the finished product was the last day that we put sod on it, way back in whatever year that was 2003, maybe? I guess when we opened it. So I would make regular visits, once a month. So I would see it in the dirt and see every hole as being finished.

End of FastScripts

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