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WORLD GOLF HALL-OF-FAME INDUCTION

November 15, 2004

Charlie Sifford

ST. AUGUSTINE, FLORIDA

THE MODERATOR: Can you tell us how you're feeling?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: I was at the dinner last night. What a wonderful dinner. Arnold Palmer made a speech that really put water in my eyes. This man made a wonderful speech about me, you know. We've been knowing each other for 45 years. We first met, you know, he was Arnie, I was Charlie Sifford (laughter). We went nose to nose one time. We got each of us straightened out, you understand. He's Arnold Palmer, I'm Charlie Sifford.

I tried to make it, and I made it. It was beautiful, real beautiful. Nice suggestions he made. Up at the Hall of Fame, playing you got to go, you got to go see that Hall of Fame. It is the beautiful thing. The guys got it set up so perfect. Everything is in place. I really was surprised myself.

All right. I'm ready for you, I think.

Q. You said if you really love golf, you need to go over to the World Golf Hall of Fame. Going over there a little earlier, I got a chance to see your display in there. How do you feel about knowing the fact that you're going to be forever remembered among the greatest players that ever played the game? How do you feel about that?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: Well, I feel very good. You know, it's a wonderful thing that a little black man from Charlotte, North Carolina, a caddie, can go through all the obstacles he went through and wind up being inducted into the Hall of Fame, the World Hall of Fame. It don't get any bigger than that.

I appreciate everybody that had anything to do with it because this is a tough suggestion. You just don't put people in the Hall of Fame unless you have qualified for that position. I think I did a good job.

This makes me believe that they accept me as one of the professional golfers, not the one that made all the money. I didn't make any money, but I survived (laughter).

I'm very excited about it. I know I'm going to be very emotional tonight. But all this comes with the game anyway.

Q. You mentioned that you had squared off against Arnold Palmer one time. Are you referring to a 1955 Canadian Open?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: That 1955 Canadian Open, you see, Arnold Palmer just started. I was trying to get started (laughter). That's where we met.

I got in the Canadian Open through Teddy Rose. I used to work for Billy Eckstein as a private golf instructor. We was in Chicago in a theater. Teddy came in and wanted to go to the Canadian Open, but he didn't have any money. Billy Eckstein gave me some money to take Teddy to Canada.

I don't know how he got me in the tournament, but he got me exempt. I didn't know anything about playing no professional golf. I mean, I could play golf, but this was the first professional tournament I played in. I think that course record still stands.

So I go out and shoot 63. Everyone was standing up at this score board looking at the score board, all them Frenchmen, they was speaking French, I didn't have nothing to do with that, I didn't know what they was saying. But they was talking to each other. Arnold Palmer shoots 64.

Arnold came off the green, run to the score board, he sees that 63 up there. He said, "Charlie Sifford. How in the hell did he shoot 63? " I'm standing right behind him. I said, "The same damn way you shot 64." That's how we met (laughter).

He's a nice fellow. He's a nice man. We understood each other tremendously.

Q. Mr. Sifford, you won twice on the regular PGA TOUR and you never had a chance to play in the Masters. Does this in any way make up for that and I wonder if you could talk about not ever being invited to the Masters, whether it still stings to this day?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: When I started this game, I wanted to do five things: I wanted to win a golf tournament, I wanted to play in the PGA, I wanted to play in the National Open, and I wanted to play in the Masters, and I wanted to get in the Hall of Fame.

Well, I got four of them, but I missed the Masters.

That doesn't bother me at all simply because, when I won the LA Open, I was supposed to go when I won Hartford, I was supposed to go, but they changed the rules. They said, "This old man is 47 years old. He not going to win no more tournaments." (Inaudible) in 1974 won the tournament in Pensacola, Florida. He played in the Masters in '75. I know Cliff didn't like that at all. But my grandson, when he came along, of course you know Tiger Woods is my grandson (laughter), good to have a rich grandson like that, and won the Masters, it made my dreams come true, you know, because that's what I had in mind, but I didn't have a chance. I couldn't play. I could play golf.

You know, a lot of people don't understand what type of pressure you're under when you're out there playing. I was out there playing by myself, and everybody was watching me. So many things I had to do because I had to watch that I didn't make no mistakes. I had to watch that I had a caddie that didn't make no mistakes. I'm watching that I didn't make a mistake myself. So it was really tough.

But I guess, you know, the good Lord was on my side, I'm sure, because nobody else was on my side (laughter).

Q. Mr. Sifford, I'm wondering if you could talk about this class that is being inducted this year. We got players from Japan, Canada, yourself being the first African American in the Hall of Fame, Tom Kite. What does it say about the sport of golf to have a class like this being inducted this year?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: It means golf is the greatest game that ever was invented. Football, baseball, basketball can't touch golf because golf is a game that you meet real people. I mean, you just can't be a wild man, a man with no representation of what you're doing. You just got to be learning how to play in game from meeting people. There's a whole lot of real nice people, great people that's playing golf. It just don't get any better. Anybody you meet playing golf, that's really into golf, that you be socialized with, it's something else. You can't beat it. I think it's the greatest thing in the world.

Being inducted in the Hall of Fame, it doesn't get any better than that.

Q. The injustice of what you referred to earlier, you were denied a chance to be a professional early on, at what point did you put that behind you? You said you were not bitter. When did you get over that?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: You know, there's rules and everything. I found out that there is the rules they had in golf, you understand, you had to be Caucasian to be a professional golfer.

When that was removed, it gave me a chance to play, gave me a players card. I played four years with that card. Everything was successful. Then they gave me a PGA card. Then I was invited to play in Greensboro. Man, when they called me, Dr. Simms, God bless him, he passed about three years ago, he called me, I was at home in Los Angeles, California, baby sitting for my little son. My wife, she was at work. This guy told Dr. Simms, "You invited to come to Greensboro to play in the Greensboro Open." I said, "What did you say? "You invited to come to Greensboro." I thought he was drunk or something because, man, me going to Greensboro, playing in a PGA golf tournament with white folks, and I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina, that was the day (laughter).

I told everybody, I said, "Listen, I call you back." When my wife got home, you understand, I said, "Rose, they're asking me to come down to Greensboro, North Carolina, to play in a golf tournament. What do you think?"

At first I thought maybe she might be trying to get rid of me (laughter). She said, "Go on down there. They ain't going to bother you." So that's why I went to Greensboro. If she had said no, there wouldn't have been no Greensboro.

I had some problems in Greensboro. I knew what I was getting into. If I wanted to be a professional golfer, this is what I got to do. So that's what I chose to do. It wasn't easy, I tell you that.

First day of the tournament, I led at 68. Man, the phone got hot that night. You know, it wasn't no integration then, you know. Wasn't no hotel for me to stay in. They put me in the dormitory of the College. Man, those kids ran me out of there. So the second day, when the doctor come to pick me up to take me to the golf course, I had all my clothes. He said, "Where you going?"

I said, "I got to get out of this dormitory. These kids aren't going to let me do no sleeping, no nothing." So I moved in with a friend that I met up there, George and Betty LaVette. I moved in with them and everything worked out all right.

Q. What were some of the problems you had there?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: Some of the problems?

Q. At Greensboro. Were people saying things from the gallery?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: Oh, yeah. Calling me, telling me not to come back to the golf course. Took about 17 holes to lock up 25 or 30 of them. "Let me see this." Didn't none of them touch me, thank God. It turned out very well. I was just stubborn enough because I just came out of the Army, 24th Infantry. I was a pretty tough guy. I wasn't afraid of anything. It was this Teddy Rose. I think somewhere down the line he should be put in the Hall of Fame. This man turned me around. He gave me another life to live. He told me what I had to do to be successful with this game of golf because at the drop of a hat I was ready to fight. But he turned me around, showed me what I had to do and what I had to do to become a professional golfer.

How I got into this thing, Bill and Teddy Rose, this is 1947 or '48. In California, they had a tournament up in California, Richmond, California. Bill and Teddy sent the application in to play in the tournament. When they accepted the money, and when they went up to play, they wouldn't let them play. Bill, he's a fighter, man, he sued 'em. It didn't mean much because they just told him, said, "Well, if you drop the suit," they didn't have no lawyer or nothing like that, "if you drop the suit, we'll let you play." They dropped the suit. Made all the tournaments invitational after that (laughter).

When they came back to LA, I took the fight up. I said, "That's not right. If any man is qualified to do anything, I don't care whether it's white, black, blue or green, I think he should be given a chance." I just took it upon myself that I was going to fight the battle.

I had some very good friends on my side. I thank Jim Murray, the newspaper guy in Los Angeles, California, I think is the greatest I've ever seen in my life, a columnist. He kept the heat on Cliff in the Masters, Stanley Moss, Attorney General of the state of California. So we used to play with Eckstein, Jewish club, you know I'm Jewish (laughter), not Wilshire Country Club, but Hillcrest. Every day, Stanley Moss was a member there. I would shoot 67, 68, 66. So Stanley said to me, "Charlie, man, if you play like this next week, you going to win the tournament."

I said, "What tournament?"

He said, "The PGA."

I said, "Oh, man, they ain't going to let me play in no PGA."

He said, "Why?"

I said, "Man, tonight you see, I'm a black man."

He said, "What difference does that make?"

I said, "Stanley, in the constitution bylaws of professional golf, it says only Caucasian members can become members of the professional golf association."

He said, "I don't believe that."

I said, "We going to play tomorrow."

At the golf course the next day, I had it and I showed it to him.

He said, "No, no, no, this is not going to happen."

He said, "Will you stand by me?"

I said, "Yeah, I'll stand by you."

He said, "Meet me Monday morning."

Monday morning came, you understand, I went to his office. He called out to Wilshire Country Club, where the PGA was going to be. He said, "I have a man that I want to enter in the tournament." Whoever he was talking to, I don't know, he told Stanley, "Listen, what is his name?"

He said, "You know my name is Charles Sifford." I'm going to tell you about that, then I'll tell you about the tournament.

When I went to Greensboro, North Carolina, to play in this tournament, on the tee, the announcer, I don't remember his name, he got on this microphone, I'm getting ready to tee off, 400, 500 people down the fairway, around the tee. He started talking. He said, "On the tee, from Los Angeles, California, Charlie Sifford." That wasn't my name, you know. "Charlie Sifford is the first black man ever play golf in the south in a white tournament." Then he started I wanted him to get off of that mic because I wanted hit my ball. I didn't know who was (inaudible) on that first tee. I wasn't going to worry about the name Charlie. I don't care, just call me. That's how I got the name Charlie. My name is Charles Sifford, but it didn't matter to me, just call me.

Back to Stanley. Stanley called this guy, whoever he was, I don't know who he talked to. He said, "Listen, I want to enter a player." When he told them my name, this guy, whoever he was talking to said, "No, no, no, no, he can't play."

Stanley say, "Why?"

He told him.

Stanley said, "I'm going to tell you what. I'm going to give you till 3:00 I'm going to give you till Wednesday morning. If he's not in this tournament, you take this tournament out of the state of California." All this money already spent. They took the tournament out of California and took it to Pennsylvania.

I don't know who won that tournament. It wasn't Gary Player. I think (inaudible) won that tournament. They took the tournament out, wouldn't let me play. Then he took the clause out, and that was it.

Q. Being from Charlotte, we want to tell you that we're proud of you. I would like for you to reflect on what it was like growing up during that time playing golf? What was it like growing up during that time as a young man in the south, in Charlotte, coming up?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: Well, there's a man that owned the golf court, Mr. Sutton Alexander. I think he's the greatest person I ever met in my life. He told my mother and father that, "You should let Charles go to Philadelphia." I had an uncle in Philadelphia. He told them, "You should let Charles go to Philadelphia because I think he has the ability to play golf. I don't want him to get hurt."

I was slipping in and out of the golf course in the afternoon and played. They had a green man, man, he was a mean man, carried a shotgun. He used to shoot at me in the air. He wasn't trying to shoot me. That's how that happened. I didn't leave Charlotte because I wanted to. I had an uncle living in Philadelphia named James Sifford. I took his word for it. I went on to Philadelphia because I wasn't going to stop playing golf. (Inaudible) shot either.

Q. I had an opportunity to ask Jim Thorpe, playing on the Champions Tour, about you and your contributions to the game. He basically said if it weren't for what you've done, what you went through, he would never be out there enjoying the success he does now. More importantly he said sometimes God picks certain people to fight certain battles. The fact that Charlie Sifford was the one that was chosen, because you were the only one who would have the strength to endure what you endured, could you share with us a little bit about what gave that to you? Was it something that your parents might have instilled in you as you were young, that you learned as a caddie, that helped you deal with the adversity that you felt?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: I fought the battle because I wanted to play golf. I fought the battle because I knew there was a lot of I had 12 players out on the tour, and they just couldn't hold up. It was tough, man. You know, being like that, no money, no qualifying, getting into tournaments, it's very tough. I told you, I came out of that 24th Infantry, I was tough, and I thought I could do it.

I saw where some things that I had to do to do this. I wasn't going to stand no hitting, but along they talked to me, called me whatever they wanted to call me. I promised Jackie Robinson I was going to do it. I went to him in 1947, and I asked him, I told him what I was going to do. So he said, "Charlie, are you a quitter?"

I said, "No, I'm not a quitter."

He said, "If you're not a quitter, go ahead and take the challenge. If you're a quitter, there's going to be a lot of obstacles you're going to have to go through to be successful in what you're trying to do."

I made up my mind I was going to do it. I just did it. Everything worked out perfect, I think.

Q. 1947 was also the year Jackie Robinson broke the baseball barrier. Did that have an impact? Did you meet Jackie Robinson? Did you ever past time with him? You went to the racetracks with Jackie Robinson.

CHARLIE SIFFORD: Once or twice, but I didn't have no money (laughter). I bet one horse. I never will forget his name. It was (inaudible). I bet five dollars on that horse (inaudible).

Jackie, he loved golf. He would get off of the golf course, that's where he would go. I didn't knock him for that. That's what he wanted to do. I have a nephew, Curtis Sifford, very good player. That's why he didn't make it in the golf course, because he loved those horses.

I never was a gambler because the few dollars I had, I wanted to keep it, you know. I had the wife, a son. I wanted to do the best I could taking care of them with the couple dollars I won. Might have been $250 this week, $300 the next week. Didn't make no difference at all. Everything worked out perfect. And I lived to get 82 years old. I think golf has something to do with it. If I hadn't been playing golf, I don't know what I would have been doing.

Q. You have a book out called Just Let Me Play. When will it be out in the bookstores?

CHARLIE SIFFORD: They told the publisher they wasn't going to put this book in the bookstores. They didn't let them put it in the bookstores. None of the bookstores would accept this book. But I still the publisher, we still sell the book. Doing very well with it. I just had 4500 made a month ago. I go to outings. I do four outings a year. They buy 300, 400 books. I do the Jackie Robinson tournament. They bought 500 books.

Slowly, but surely, you know. You got to hustle in this world to make it. If they tell you you can't do something, if you believe that, then you dead. But they have books here for the Hall of Fame.

THE MODERATOR: Charlie was nice enough to sign those. So there are autographed books on sale in the Hall of Fame book shop.

End of FastScripts.

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