U.S. SENIOR OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP

June 26, 2001

Jack Nicklaus

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I was only there for half a tournament - about the same number I've been playing in myself. Unfortunately for Gary, but, no, I would -- I wouldn't have gone to the Open if it hadn't have been for Gary playing. He wanted me to go, so I did. I tried to work with him. But he just didn't have enough U.S. Open experience yet. For that type of golf course, he didn't grow up playing much junior golf or amateur golf. So I think when you do that, you understand a U.S. Open setup a lot better. And how to play it. And that's what we tried to work on. It didn't seem to get there. But anyway, I enjoyed going. People say, what's it like not playing. I said, you play at a tournament that you can play and if you can't play, if you're not playing very well, don't play. So if you can't be competitive, and I wouldn't have been, so that's fine.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I haven't been playing very well. I've been playing sort of mediocre to bad. And I've actually made a couple of changes in my golf swing which I like. Of course you're always making changes in your golf swing. We will just see what happens with it. I was able to play left-to-right for the first time in a long time and I'm able to hit the ball hard without worrying about it going left. So which is good. And we will see what happens. I like the golf course, nice golf course. It's generous off the tees. Your rough is certainly tough enough to not do much with it once you get in it. And the greens have got an awful lot of pitch to them. And it depends on what they control as far as the speed goes. Depending on what the scores are. If they keep the speed up, then the greens will get tricky and very difficult to play and the scores won't be low. If the greens are around where they are now, you have the opportunity to play golf; if you play well, you'll score well and you'll probably see some good scores if that's the case.

JACK NICKLAUS: USGA experience.

JACK NICKLAUS: Has nothing to do with being a major. It's the setup. I sort of always like the way the USGA sets up a golf course. They take the course and the quality of the field as it relates to whether it's a junior or whether it's an amateur whether it was an Open, they set the golf course up accordingly to the level of play of the field. To play an Open golf course you've got to learn how to be patient. You got to learn how to hit the ball in play. You got to make sure that your misses are in places you can play from. Sometimes you got to make your misses be a good shot. You got to put them in places that you can hit the ball at the pin. You certainly -- you don't take that shot then. Normal Tour events you can usually get away with some of the time with that. For instance, with Gary, Southern Hills actually was a very awkward golf course, I felt, in my opinion. I think it's a golf course where you have to throw the ball, play -- almost play to the short side of the hole. You know what I mean by the short side? The pin is on the right, you almost have to play to the right of the hole to get a decent putt. I don't think that's the right way to play golf. I always like to design and I play from the middle of the green to the hole. If you play to the middle of the green to the hole then you take your shot that way and not by going to the outside of the hole. Well, they almost forced you to do that a little bit at Southern Hills. And I suppose maybe that's why I never played well there. I just never learned to play golf that way. And I finished the second round with Gary. He had a decent second round, shot 74. Not great, but decent. He missed the cut. And I said, how many times do you think you shortsided yourself today? He said, I don't know. Why? I understand, I'm not criticizing you, I'm saying that's -- I want you to think about what you did. And he hit the ball out of play twice so he had to play out, pitch it out twice, and actually I think he made a par and a bogey on those two holes. And the other 16 holes he shortsided himself 15 times. That didn't mean he missed the green. That means that he was on the dangerous side of the hole 15 of those 16 holes. Sometimes he had to play there. But when you're playing in a U.S. Open, you try not to do that unless you have to do it. And you have a club in your hand that's appropriate to play that shot, maybe a 9-iron or wedge or something like that. And so I think what happens is when you make a mistake to that side then you really -- it multiplies. And those are the things you have to learn to play in USGA events. And golf courses are straightforward. And I think it was a good lesson for Gary. I think he didn't realize that that is what he was doing. And he just didn't have enough USGA experience understanding that kind of a situation. This particular golf course here, it's absolutely death to shortside yourself here. Long or on the side of the green where the pin is. This is a very conventional golf course. I grew up on a Donald Ross golf course. Ross says play to the middle of the greens, work yourself to the hole and if you look at this course you go right on there you -- you play to the middle of the green and keep edging your way towards the hole, you figure out how much you want to bite off and then you don't make a mistake to get on the outside of the hole if you are there, you got a dangerous downhill putt or chipping somewhere where you can't chip from. And that's -- this is the kind of golf course I grew up on and I enjoy playing it.

JACK NICKLAUS: You just -- I don't think anything beats preparation. And that's what you do is you prepare yourself for the situation you have. You find out what -- it is just like any student going to college. You read your textbook, you find out what you've got and you understand what you need to prepare yourself for for an exam and you go prepare yourself. You come here it's an examination of the best of the senior golfers. You find out what you have to do off the tee, you find out what you have to do with your iron shots, you prepare yourself for that. I played enough U.S. Opens or USGA tournaments that I understood this so when I got here last night, they picked me up at the airport last night and he couldn't understand why I was in such a hurry because I wanted to get 18 holes in because I wanted to see the golf course to form my preparation for how I'm going to practice the next few days. Sometimes I'll have the opportunity to come in early. I didn't have that today this week. I don't suppose it's as probably as important for me now as it was then. Because I haven't played well enough to worry about it. But still I like to put myself in a position to understand what I have to do; how I have to do it; what kind of a golf game will work for that course; what kind of shots do I have to play and how do I have to prepare myself. So it's the same at the U.S. Open or the British Open and that's why I always went a week or 10 days in advance because I had to prepare myself for that particular situation. Certainly a Senior Open is not near an examination as a regular Open is. Fairways are wider, it's not as long; greens aren't as fast; aren't as hard. We're seniors. We're not -- if we were -- if we weren't over 50 or over 60 in my case, we would be back playing the regular Tour. We're not playing there any more more. We are out here playing. We're not good enough to play there any more. So you don't test us to that level. Which is fine. It's great. That's the way it should be.

JACK NICKLAUS: I'll let you know that Sunday night. (Laughter.) You think I am worried about playing here and winning here and whether I have to go to Bethpage or not? Do you think that would be something that I would be worried about? No.

JACK NICKLAUS: No, I understand that. Ask all you want but I won't have an answer to that until -- I wouldn't have an answer for that until next year.

JACK NICKLAUS: Not much.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, I was testing him today. I said, come here, you're the local guru. My caddy, Scott, was an assistant professional here for two years, '94, '95, isn't that right? And so I said come on, read these putts for me. So far he hasn't been able to read them. (Laughter.) So I'm testing him right now. I'm having fun with him. And kidding him, I said, okay, guru, how far. It's a couple of inches out and I hit it and it breaks more or less and you know obviously it's how hard you hit the putt as well. But I'm having a lot of fun with him out here. Good guy. He's a good caddy for me. Scotty has been with me probably three, four years now. And ever since I took him down to the Bear's Club and he was an assistant and he'll get his class A probably next year. We talked about that last night. I assume that after next year you're going to want to go into your own job. He said, yeah. I said, you can caddy as long as you want, but I think for your career you need to move on. Which I think he will. He'll do a good job. And he'll do fine this week too.

JACK NICKLAUS: My thoughts about what?

JACK NICKLAUS: Winning all three, what do you mean what are my thoughts about it?

JACK NICKLAUS: Good company. I don't have any comments about it. Why would I have any comments? I said I like the USGA events, I like what they -- the way they set up the golf courses and I always enjoyed playing in them and so there wouldn't be any thoughts. I don't know what there would be to comment about except other than I look forward to them. I think I played in seven amateurs, I guess, seven amateurs before I turned professional. 1955 through '61. And I played in every Senior Open I think I played -- I guess I didn't. No, I missed the Senior Open in the Des Moines, didn't I, after I had my hip done.

JACK NICKLAUS: I thought I was going to be able to play but I couldn't even walk. I was -- I would like to have played -- I wanted to play but that was when I got -- about six months after my hip operation I hadn't played for a couple months and I just -- it just got so sore, I couldn't play. And I had to go straight to the airport and I couldn't play. That's the only one basically since I was ever eligible to play. I played in five juniors, six amateurs, 44 Opens. And this is my -- this will be my 11th Senior. I played -- I guess I missed the one so this would have been my 12th time to play.

JACK NICKLAUS: I don't know what a Ross course really is. I grew up on a Ross golf course. If you look at Ross golf courses if you -- he spent most of his time at Pinehurst. And I have never seen another golf course in this United States or anywhere else that looks anything like Pinehurst. Or designed anything like it. I grew up at Scioto, all of the out of bounds on Scioto was on the right -- all the trouble was on the right. So that's why I was a left-to-right player. I played to the center of the golf course out. I never aimed the ball out of bounds to hook it. That's why I became a left-to-right player. The Oak Hills is a Donald Ross golf course, huge greens. Scioto has small greens. It's Donald Ross. Played golf courses -- let's see, I played Ross courses that are flat; Ross golf courses that are heavily pitched greens. Actually I think that's a compliment to Ross to change around what he does. It's what I try to do when I design a course as well. I try to have a whole bunch of different things that I do that the golf courses have to have variety and he has that. The only thing I think that I found that rarely do you find any really screwy holes on a Ross golf courses. He does a lot of -- most of the greens were all pushups. They drop off on the sides, down the sides and the back. Most of the bunkering is probably out of date. Where they have been able to adjust tees they probably have. But you have a lot of bunkers on this golf course and yeah, a lot of them that aren't in play. I mean, a bunker at No. 2, the bunker, it looks like it was probably done for four and five anyway. You got a bunker at 11 off the tee. A bunker at 15 off the tee. They're not in play. And not in play by today's standards. And does that ruin the golf course? No, I don't think it does. A lot of golf courses they have brought them up to date and changed the bunkering to fit today's standards. Is that right or wrong? I don't know. Is it right what they do at Augusta? I mean, they make that place over every week. Is it right to do what you need to do at a U.S. Open to make the course tougher? I don't know. Is it really -- you can't go back and have Donald Ross make it over. He's not going to be around to answer any questions. It's what the USGA feels this week is the right thing to test that they have for this tournament. So I don't know if I answered your question or dodged around it or I even got off the subject. But that's -- let's just say that the golf course is pretty much what I expected when I -- in other words if I had gotten here, I'm not surprised by what I saw. It's about what I expected -- the type of golf course that I expected to see. I expected to see a lot of pitch. I expected to see smallish greens. I expected the golf course to be drop off on the sides. I expected the fairway bunkering not to be excessive. That's what I expected and what it is. It's a very nice golf course I like it a lot. I don't think the golf course probably under most play is very difficult. Probably, I think it's, probably the normal members play a very fun, roaming golf course to play. I think if you take the greens and firm them up, then the course will play difficult. That's basically what they have done. Is that correct? Did I do that correctly? Members can score the golf course all right if they play all right.

JACK NICKLAUS: No, my swing is totally different this week. I'm using a swing 563 B. (Laughter.) B is an adjustment I made this week. I started counting, it's 563 from about a month ago. I don't know. I never know. I'm actually playing left-to-right. I played basically the way I like to play on an Open golf course. And so it will be difficult for me to play right-to-left shots this week and I'm hoping that I don't get in a situation where I have to. I hope I don't have to play that way, but just play left-to-right. It's coming along quite nicely.

JACK NICKLAUS: No, I used it the next week at Memorial then I started dropping the club behind me and then I start playing what I call foosball, where you start flipping it and that's it. I had to find something else because it didn't work. It was a drill to try to get my right hip and right shoulder back in behind the ball. I don't think that was probably the right thing for me. I never played that way. I played so many different ways in my life that I figure I could figure out some way to get the ball down the fairway and on the green somehow. I drove the ball pretty good. My iron game was pathetic. My iron game has been pathetic for quite a while. My iron game is pretty good right now. Which really pleases me.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, that's why played yesterday. I wanted three. I mean, I think it will help getting in more than two. But you're not going to get much more than that. Lots of guys don't have three. A lot of guys, most of the seniors were already in Boston to start with and I'm sure you had some seniors come in Sunday or Saturday, didn't you? Yeah, they had some guys come in. So some came in and decided they wanted to prepare.

JACK NICKLAUS: My expectations are always to win. That's always my expectations. That's always what I try to work for and prepare for. The golf course is not overly long, but long enough. It's not an, I don't think it is, I don't think it's a driver and wedge, driver and wedge golf course. I'm not playing wedges. Maybe the guys -- I played with Arnold and Miller Barber today so those guys aren't playing drivers and wedges either. But they're also 10 years older than I am. And I didn't play with anybody last night, I don't know whether I'm being relative to anybody else in the field. But it's -- I feel like if I play well I certainly should have an opportunity to win the golf tournament. I don't see any reason why I wouldn't. Certainly more so on this type of golf course than a lot of golf courses that we play on.

JACK NICKLAUS: Not a lot of people walked from 6:30 to 8:30 last night. While I was out here. And I had a lot of people obviously today. I understand you had huge crowds yesterday for Monday. I wasn't, I got here really late, obviously. But every time I, every time we go to a place that hasn't had golf or hasn't had a tournament, they, they're very enthusiastic they love to watch the guys play. And, I mean, the people here at Salem are very excited about having the Seniors here. And they haven't, you could go down, I suppose you could go down to Boston or watch the tournament or you could go, I guess they don't have the tournament at Worchester any more, do they, but you can go play or when they played at the Country Club, Ryder Cup I guess was the last event they had there. Usually you go to different areas, I think that's kind of neat when the USGA or even PGA we move around to places that are not regular stops on the Tour that people are really very enthusiastic about what happens. I mean, the reception at Ridgewood was terrific for the PGA Seniors. They were great. And I think you're having the same reception here.

JACK NICKLAUS: Why do you have to do that? Somebody twist your arm?

JACK NICKLAUS: First of all, I didn't watch it. I went fishing. And I was on the Henry Fork River in Northern Idaho casting a nice little dry fly out towards some trout. So I didn't have an opportunity to watch it. However, I did see, about 11 o'clock that night, the replay of the last hole. And that was not good. That wasn't pretty. However, that is a very difficult hole. That could happen any time. And not only today, but 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago that was quite a possibility that could happen. So I certainly wouldn't fault the guys for that type of a thing. The only thing that really is the biggest problem today is that the guys get to win so seldom that they don't ever learn how to be winners. They play in, if somebody wins a tournament out of every 20 or 30 tournaments, they have had a pretty darn good run. Tiger's obviously different, he's winning half of his tournaments. So he's the only one that really knows how to win. And when you do that, it's very difficult to compete against somebody that knows how to do that. I mean, that's the same advantage I had. And I won, I don't know what I won, but probably 20 percent of the time probably. I won something like one out of five he's probably winning one out of three total basis, I suppose, I don't know.

JACK NICKLAUS: I don't know. Yeah. Whatever. I mean he's winning a better percentage than I was winning. But also you got to remember the guys, I didn't have as many guys to play against as he does, but the guys that I played with, because there wasn't as many of them, they had the opportunity to learn how to win. So if I fell on my face there was always a guy there who was an experienced winner who would step in. You had Arnold, Gary, Watson, Trevino, Miller, right down the line. All those guys knew how to win and they had won. And all these guys are probably better players today however, they haven't had the experience to win. And in particularly at majors. I mean, obviously, the title that Duval and Mickelson have is, they're very good players who haven't won a major. They're the two best. But the competition that's there are only guys, Ernie hasn't won since what? I'm talking about majors here. Was that Congressional in '97? So Ernie hasn't won a major for two years. Vijay has won twice. He's won the Masters and the PGA? He's probably the most recent. Obviously it was a shame what happened to Payne, but Payne had won three times and he was really coming into his prime when his accident happened. And he would have been one that you would, I mean you saw him coming down the stretch at the U.S. Open. He wanted to win that golf tournament and he did the things that you -- he did the things you have to do. Holing the putt at 16, he holes his put at 17, holes his putt at 18. He did all the things you have to do to win a tournament. Guys today, they don't make a put at 16, 17, 18, make a mistake somewhere. And that's what they're all doing. Now, these guys will learn. I'm not saying they're choke artists or anything else. That's not my intention of what I'm saying. If you look at Tom Watson, Tom Watson, good gracious, Tom gave away U.S. Open and PGA championships like they were, you know, like water running over a dam when he first started. But he learned from those and he learned how to win. And then he finally had the opportunity to win and he learned how to win and he learned how to play and then he won quite a few. And I think these guys will too, but right now they don't know how to do it. So Tiger's got a big advantage because he does know how to do it and there's nobody there that does it. When I stumbled, each one of those guys knew how to step in. And that's really all I'm saying. I'm not saying anybody's a bad player, I'm just saying that that's what the case is. Because they're good players.

JACK NICKLAUS: That I didn't win? Gee, I don't remember any of those. (Laughter.)

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, 1960 Open, I keep telling Arnold I said, if I hadn't shot 39 the last two holes, they never would have heard of him, you know. (Laughter.)

JACK NICKLAUS: Hogan what?

JACK NICKLAUS: Hogan's quotes have been misquoted. You know, I think Hogan came home and told Dan Jenkins, he said, "I played with a kid this week, if he knew how to win would have won by 10 strokes". People come home, people came back with a quote which was incorrect, because Dan's told me years later, he said, no, he didn't say that. I said, well that's what I heard. He said he played with a kid, if he had a brain in his head, would have won by 10 strokes. That's the one I heard. Quotes do get changed, you know. And one of the questions, when it's got quotes around it, it must be fact, right. But anyway, I mean that nine holes I learned a lot because I learned that, even though I made mistakes, everybody else is making mistakes too, so you need to learn to minimize your mistakes. Because you don't have to be perfect to win. And that nine holes I gave away shot after shot after shot. And got upset with myself and forced my myself to give away another shot. And that's cost me, inexperience cost me that tournament. I don't know whether inexperience cost me the next year or not. I was two shots back of Littler with seven holes to play the next year and ended up bogeying two holes that I should have birdied and ended up losing by three. And of course then I won the next year beating Arnold. But each time you lose you should understand why and how. The only major that I can really say that I gave away when I really should have won was probably '63. I bogeyed the last two holes. I had a shot lead and I bogeyed the last two holes and lost the tournament. I thought I tied for the tournament, but I didn't. I didn't realize that both Rogers and Charles were on the 16th green. And I stood on the 18th tee and watched them putt or watched the crowd in the distance, never heard a sound. They both holed 20-footers, even though the wind was blowing the wrong direction I couldn't hear anything. I thought they parred it. So I thought I needed par at 18 to win, bogey to lose. And I challenge the hole differently than I would have normally. And it cost me the tournament. Because even when I finished I said, wait, wait I got a playoff tomorrow. No, no, no, they're one shot better than you are. Oh. I didn't know that until they played 18.

JACK NICKLAUS: Would I have played it differently? Yeah, I probably would have played it differently. There's times when you give up things. And I finished second a lot of times. As a matter of fact more than I won probably. And each time I analyze what happened, why, and so forth. And if there was something that I did or was it somebody just played better. And sometimes I might have been a little bit conservative on the way I played. But I look back at the other three tournaments that I won that I played them the same way, and I won and maybe that tournament there I played well, maybe I could have taken a gamble someplace, but the opportunity came for somebody else to make a mistake and they didn't. They played better than I did. And I never really worry about losing a golf tournament as long as I've done my best and I can sit back and go home and say I did the best I could do and I just got beat. I don't ever mind that. That means somebody just played better. And does that mean that I could have taken it, does it mean I could have taken some chances maybe and done something? But also maybe if I would have gotten into the habit of doing that kind of thing I would have blown five other ones. So I played the way I thought I needed to play to win. And that was my way of playing. Sometimes I lost. Watson at Turnberry. I missed one putt but, you know, I shoot 65, 66 the last round, that's not too bad. I've shot a lot of low rounds the last rounds of tournaments that somebody just played better. Did I answer your question or not?

JACK NICKLAUS: I wasn't sure I really answered it or not I dodged around trying to give you enough answers you found what you wanted.

JACK NICKLAUS: I don't know.

JACK NICKLAUS: No, you're not. You're not. I played in the Junior here too.

JACK NICKLAUS: Okay.

JACK NICKLAUS: I was only 16. I was a non-professional.

JACK NICKLAUS: To hold the fort here in Massachusetts?

JACK NICKLAUS: 0 for four.

JACK NICKLAUS: I thought you said hold the fort.

JACK NICKLAUS: My hearing is not very good. Gosh, you know, I never really look at it that way. (Laughter.) What incentive? What a way to spur me on. (Laughter.) Thank you. I don't know.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, we have played enough golf together, obviously some day everything ends, you know. But I enjoy playing with Arnold, I enjoy playing with Gary. We always have a good time playing together. I honestly have never seen Arnold play quite as badly as he played today. We were all, everybody was giving him a lesson. I think even the marshall that followed us. At number 18 she was giving him a lesson. And she couldn't play at all. She didn't even play. (Laughter.) But Arnold was having some struggles. He was struggling. He was really struggling. But, and, you know, of course, obviously we wouldn't kid him, we wouldn't needle him at all about it, you know. We had a blast. He was my partner and we ended up winning. And we had, he helped me one hole. (Laughter.) But, anyway, you know, we have a lot of fun together and we enjoy it. And we kid each other a lot. Our usual line is, if someone shoots 75 or 76, you know, it's, where did you get all your birdies? Tell me about your round. The last thing anybody wants to talk about, obviously. So that that's what we ask each other. I think we have been pretty fortunate. We have had a bunch of guys that have competed, won a lot of tournaments, beaten each other, tried to drum each other as hard as we could. We all still enjoy playing together and having fun. That's great. I think that's great. And I think probably a lot more fun, actually, we had a lot of fun when we were younger, but we probably still have more fun today than we did before. Does that answer your question? ?

JACK NICKLAUS: Okay.

JACK NICKLAUS: Thank you.