NCAA MEN'S BASKETBALL CHAMPIONSHIP: SECOND ROUND - FURMAN VS SAN DIEGO STATE

March 17, 2023

Bob Richey

JP Pegues

Jalen Slawson

Mike Bothwell

Amway Center

Furman Paladins

Media Conference

Q. JP, when we spoke to you in the locker room after the game yesterday, you said you were kind of numb still from making the shot. What's the last 24 hours been like for you, and how has it kind of -- what was the reaction from your family, friends and everything?

JP PEGUES: Yeah, most definitely. It was crazy. I got to kind of soak in the moment and things like that. I was able to celebrate with my teammates, my family, the Furman family. I started to realize how big the moment was. But also I noticed that it wasn't just totally me. I don't want to consider the moment totally about me, because at the end of the day, I did make the shot, but it was a team effort. It wasn't anything that was about myself.

But just being able to celebrate with the people I love. I wasn't on my phone too much because I knew it was blowing up at that time. I just wanted to be in the moment, and I was able to do that with the people I care about the most.

Q. JP, just to follow up on that a little bit, how many times have you watched that clip of your shot, first of all?

JP PEGUES: Numerous times. Like back to back. It's been at least 50 times I've watched that specific clip. I was just so numb to the fact at first. I couldn't believe it.

Q. I wanted to ask you about the way you ran the offense yesterday. The team only shot 39 percent. Did it surprise you that you could be as effective and really not have a great shooting day?

JP PEGUES: Specifically me or the team in general? The whole team, yeah. We know that every night isn't going to be our best night. It's about what we do besides the shooting, when the threes and the shots aren't falling down.

I feel like in the second half we did a better job of rebounding the basketball, getting stops when we needed it, and just having belief and fighting. I feel like that's what we did the best, and by having that mentality, we were able to be effective.

Q. For all of you, now that the game is kind of behind you, what's been the message now as you prepare to take on San Diego State in.

MIKE BOTHWELL: Coach Richey talked to us last night after we got back from dinner, and he was saying he didn't want us to forget about this moment, but we'll have that moment for the rest of our lives, to not hold on to it too long where we can't focus on the next task ahead and miss out on the next opportunity.

The words he's been preaching throughout the summer are we've got to be connected, be urgent and have joy in what we're doing. We're still enjoying it, still happy where we are, but we've got to be urgent and prep and we have a big task ahead of us tomorrow. We've had a good balance, and it's not one without the other. We kind of do those together. We're urgent and have joy at the same time.

Q. For all the players, what was the best text message or your most favorite message or phone call or whatever that you got in the hours after the game? Is there one that stands out above any others for you guys?

JALEN SLAWSON: I would say for me personally, just seeing the alumni, the people that we've played with in the past that no longer wear the jersey but still support us. They would give anything to be able to put the jersey on with us one more time, and we know how much they sacrificed for us to be here. And the program definitely hasn't always been where it's at today. We owe them a lot for that.

But the fact that they were so excited to see us get it done yesterday and survive and advance, that meant a lot to us.

MIKE BOTHWELL: Yeah, would agree to the former players. Just me and Jalen being here for five years, I saw some former teammates at the game yesterday that I hadn't seen since they graduated. So that just really means a lot to us, just seeing them here. They were celebrating and rooting for us hard.

This wasn't a text, but I saw on Twitter that Steven A. Smith had us picked to win, so that meant a lot to me personally. Wanting to be in sports media one day, that's my favorite person in the field. No offense to anyone here. So yeah, that was cool.

JP PEGUES: I kind of agree with what Slaw said. Just seeing the emotions of the true Furman fans and our families, a lot of people said our parents was out there crying. When we see that, it makes you really want to embrace the moment because, I mean, we love those people, and we know how much they care for us, and we know how much they want us to win.

So just to be able to put a smile on their faces and for guys like the alumni, people who started and helped build this thing up, it was really special.

Q. Jalen, obviously you're still in this moment with your team now, but for your future aspirations, how important, big was that game for you yesterday in terms of just kind of keeping your name on the map and just showing everyone what you can do?

JALEN SLAWSON: I'm not really worried about it. People who have watched me know what I can do, and a game against Virginia isn't going to help or hurt that.

I'm not playing for myself, for after this. I think that would be a -- I understand your question, and I understand why you asked that, because that's 99.9 percent of college athletics right now. But I came back to be with these guys, and I'm going to make sure that my focus is 100 percent there to make sure I get to put the jersey on with Mike, the best sophomore point guard in the country, one more time.

Q. Mike, how do you stay out of foul trouble tomorrow?

MIKE BOTHWELL: I definitely think I just have to guard better without using my hands. I got two fouls just early on a quick arm bar on a drive. But I'm not a person that usually is in foul trouble. And a part of me, I don't want to say, but I feel like a part of me being in foul trouble was just how it was supposed to be yesterday. The way the guys rallied behind the difficulties I was personally facing, the team was facing.

So I don't want to say that it wasn't my fault that I was in foul trouble, but I definitely think it kind of happened for a reason, and it's the way it was meant to be. But I'm not worried about getting in foul trouble. That's one -- I don't know, that's probably the third time in my career I've fouled out. Maybe a little bit more, but it's very rare that I'm even in foul trouble, so that's not really something I'm worried about.

Q. Also for Mike, just following up a little bit on that, what kind of an emotional roller coaster was that for you? You foul out with six minutes left, your boy picks you up, score the next nine points. The game starts to slip away and your other boy wins it for you and you can live to fight another day?

MIKE BOTHWELL: I would have to say when it's all said and done that that would be probably one of the biggest moments in my career that I'll remember, being taken out of the game with six minutes to go in the biggest game of my life and having to just completely put my trust into my brothers.

It's all easy to say behind a microphone, but when you're really in that moment, you really see what you're made of, you really see what type of teammate you are. Thankfully I've been around great leaders in front of me that's showed me what that's looked like, how to be a great leader, how to put the team first.

Yesterday I had no choice but to put the team first, and I'm just glad I was able to help lead the guys. I've scored 30 points before, but nothing feels as good when Coach Richey told us last night that in his 16 years of coaching, the way I grabbed the huddle together was one of the best leadership moments he's ever seen.

The compliments about my game is one thing from anyone in the country, but when people start talking about grooming me as a leader and helping the team win from that aspect without making one assist or rebound or bucket, that's the type of stuff I will remember forever, and in some ways I'm grateful that happened.

Q. JP, there are certain iconic shots that are played on highlight reels this month forever, Christian Laettner, Tyus Edney, Thurl Bailey. Have you let yourself think that now you are part of that highlight reel, too, and how does that strike you?

JP PEGUES: Yeah, I have thought about it in some ways. Actually just being full transparency, I haven't even thought that the moment could be that big for me. I could never imagine something like that. That's the way that it struck me. People are talking about it, and people are saying, legendary shot and things like that. It's all new to me.

But at the end of the day, I'm just more so happy that we won the game, that we get to live to see another day and show the world what Furman is really about.

Q. Do you think he'll have ever to buy lunch on campus again?

MIKE BOTHWELL: I told him that yesterday, I said, you're going to have to have people with you all the times on campus because he's going to get swarmed. It's funny because he's kind of a laid back-guy on campus. Me and Jalen soak in the attention a little bit more than he does. It's funny now, he's not going to have a choice. That's the coolest thing about it.

I don't know if you guys saw the videos from our campus, and the support we had back in Greenville was amazing, multiple restaurants, our student center was packed, people were jumping into our lake. That's what makes this thing so fun and cool, how the school was really rallying behind us and having fun. So many people have texted me and said I'm getting tickets to come down Saturday and students are making the drive, buying flights. It's just really cool.

But yeah, JP, he's certified for sure.

Q. How do you guys take the confidence you guys got from that win and carry that into the next round? You guys weren't supposed to be there by all accounts outside of the area, but to get there now, you've got the confidence; can you carry that on to the next level?

JALEN SLAWSON: I say this humbly: We knew we could be here. To us, we should be here.

We didn't play our greatest game yesterday, and we talked about it. We talked about things we need to do better tomorrow.

So I think the confidence is from that, and the confidence is from our work. We've worked our tails off, and we pride ourselves on our preparation. We might not be the biggest team or the strongest team on the court all the time, but we pride ourselves on being the smartest team and having the five smartest guys on the court at all times. We get a lot of confidence from that, and then we get a lot of confidence from each other.

Moments like Mike yesterday, when our best player fouls out and he tells us y'all are going to go win the game for us, like that means -- that's doing nothing but instilling confidence in the rest of the guys. At that point you don't have any choice but to be free. At this point you're doing it for Mike. You're not doing it for yourself. You're not worried about yourself. You're out here playing so Mike can put the jersey on again.

When you have the connection and the culture that Coach Richey has built at Furman, you're never worried about who the opponent is or what's going on because we gain confidence from our system and from our connection.

Q. I'll ask the San Diego State players if they know what a Paladin is, but do you know what an Aztec is?

MIKE BOTHWELL: I don't want to say the wrong thing and this end up on some type of social media site, so I'm just going to say no. I have an idea, but I'm just going to say no.

JP PEGUES: Same.

JALEN SLAWSON: I'll pass, as well. Do you have an answer for us? Will you enlighten us?

Q. Aztec warrior, Mexican history.

MIKE BOTHWELL: That was going to be my guess, but I didn't want to be completely wrong.

Q. On a serious note, they're a team that last year -- are you aware that last year they played in the NCAA Tournament, were up nine with two minutes to go and lost in overtime, really heartbreaking loss, and their whole season was let's get back, similar to what happened to you guys. Are you aware of that, and is there kind of a kinship between your teams because you kind of have both been through the same heartbreak and now you're here and taking the next step?

MIKE BOTHWELL: I would honestly say we've been taking this like a one-game approach. Our coaches obviously plan ahead and things like that, but being that we're in two completely different conferences, two completely different sides of the country, we haven't followed them as much.

I would just say we were so locked in on Virginia. Right now we're just starting to learn more and more about their program since last night and today.

It's definitely -- we know that they're a good team and a good program. They've produced pros, like NBA and those type of things that we're aspiring to be. It's obviously a good program, we know that. So we've been just looking forward to just knowing as much as we can about them and being as prepared as we can come tomorrow at 12:00.

Q. JP, in your head if you take that shot, the exact same shot, exact same situations 10 times, how many times do you think you make it?

JP PEGUES: Honestly, anytime I shoot a shot, I think it's going in, so I'm going to humbly say 10 out of 10.

Q. Mike, I assumed you paid attention to the end of the San Diego State-Charleston game, a higher seed and a lower seed, a little bit what you guys faced with Virginia. What were your thoughts at the end of that? Would you have rather faced a different seed in that situation, or did you have a rooting interest there?

MIKE BOTHWELL: No rooting interest. I just wanted the best team to win. We knew no matter who we play between College of Charleston or San Diego State, it was going to be a really tough game. We were going to have our hands full with either opponent. It was going to be a great opportunity regardless, and I think that's how our whole team is just looking at this whole tournament. It's just an opportunity to show what Furman is all about.

We talk about it in our film room every day, at our team meetings, and building our culture. We're just glad that we got the national attention on us now. So we're just looking at this as an opportunity, trying to take one game at a time. And really more than anything, just have a faceless opponent aspect and just try to play our best ball instead of trying to more so defeat who we're playing. Just try to be our best.

Q. JP, yesterday Coach in the postgame said that you hit a similar shot in high school in a state playoff game, if I have that correct. What do you remember from that moment, and what kind of similarities do you see between that shot and the one yesterday?

JP PEGUES: It almost felt like somewhat of a -- it was just a familiar situation. I remember that same feeling in high school when I knew kind of the game was on the line and a play had to be made. I just remember like me craving, wanting that, wanting -- knowing that the season is on the line, how bad of a competitor I am and how much I want to win. Like I just remember in high school specifically like telling my coach, Coach, I got this one, like I got us.

That's kind of the same mindset that I had when Garrett got that steal yesterday, and I knew he was looking for me. And that's the part that I love, that he found me, and as soon as I caught it, I just had full belief that the shot was going in.

Q. What year were you in high school?

JP PEGUES: I was a junior in high school.

Q. For any of the players, did any of you watch the San Diego State game yesterday, and if so, what were your impressions of their team?

MIKE BOTHWELL: Yeah, we definitely watched live and some film when we got back and this morning. Great team, obviously, won the Mountain West conference if I'm not mistaken, which has four teams in this tournament. That's impressive in itself. A conference that's not a Power Five to put four teams in the tournament and a team that won the championship both regular season and conference.

We knew they're a really good but very physical team. Have good guards, good big men, physical, and can rebound the ball really well. That's what we saw when we watched the tape. Their guards really like to get downhill but can also shoot, so they present challenges in that aspect.

It was really good to see that they play fast and try to speed tempo up, too. That's what we like to do. They've got big men that are agile and can run the floor, and we have the same type of thing. Those are the things that kind of stuck out to me when I watched them.

Q. JP, this question is for you. You joked a little bit about -- your teammates joked about not having to buy lunch on campus again. Have you heard from anyone about NIL opportunities based on making that big shot in the tournament?

JP PEGUES: No, I haven't, actually, but I mean, at the time -- I haven't even thought about anything like that. I mean, I've always got our local dining hall, so I'll enjoy that.

Q. Jalen and Mike, how much did what happened to you last year in the conference tournament final sort of define -- I know you guys both came back, but define this team and that will to want to get the next step.

MIKE BOTHWELL: I'll go first. We both have similar feelings towards it, but me and Jalen definitely have different takes on it. For me personally, I look at it as this team has just been through hard and is just determined to turn bad into good. That doesn't mean that everyone has been good for us this season. That doesn't mean that we haven't had to deal with even more adversity throughout this season. But in the hard moments, I feel like we just learn how to deal with them a little bit better.

Yesterday in the game, me in foul trouble, being down 12 in the second half, those type of things can shake certain teams, have shaken us as a program in the past. But I think the shot last year is always a reminder of we can get through hard times and we can turn bad things and unfortunate situations into positives for us.

I think the shot going in last year has taken us further this year than it would have been if it never happened. Like I said, just turning a negative into a positive.

JALEN SLAWSON: Yeah, I definitely agree with what Mike said. As a program, we decided that that shot was going to fuel us and propel us into having the year we wanted to have this year. We've worked harder this year than we have in any of my four years here beforehand, and we've seen more guys grow here.

I really attribute a lot of our -- I don't want to say, our relentlessness or refusal to quit to our lower classmen, as well. He's never going to quit no matter what. Obviously Mike is never going to quit no matter what. But you know, the young guys just, they bring a mentality that's not common amongst young guys.

Me and Mike kind of started to lay the foundation for that early on in the season, and they've done a great job upholding it and building on top of it. And now they hold us to the standard just as much as we hold them to the standard.

That's not our first game that's happened like that. We've came from behind many times this year. That was probably the craziest sequence that we came from behind like that. But last year Charleston, as a matter of fact, we were down 6 with 14 seconds left, and we won that game. That just goes to show you, this team just doesn't quit.

And there was a little bit of that last year, but this year it's just taken to a whole 'nother level because of what we went through and the hard that we put ourselves through this off-season.

Q. I know it's a tight turnaround from winning your own game and the way that game finished, you probably had to give yourself at least seven minutes of celebration time, but in the short window, what did you learn about San Diego State, watching film, trying to cram for the test? What did you see?

BOB RICHEY: Well, first of all, I can assure you I took a lot longer than seven minutes. What a day yesterday. A childhood dream of mine to be in this tournament in any capacity, player, coach. This is an event I used to try to skip school for and watch all the games on Thursday and all the highlights. And to be a part of that yesterday in just what was an unbelievable basketball game, for us to come out of what was March Madness, it was incredible.

But we did, we spent a lot of last night and this morning going through film. One of my best friends in the business is Niko Medved, and as I've followed him -- we play similarly in a lot of ways. I actually saw two of the three games this year that they played. Everybody knows the reputation that they have.

And so in terms of just a very physical basketball team that's going to rebound as good as any team in the country, they're going to deny you, they're going to pressure, you, get up on you full court, you've got to be able to withstand the physicality the game.

They're very old. It's got to be one of the oldest teams in the country, so there's a lot of experience that's going to come with that.

Some people have asked me, oh, are the two games similar. Like the output in terms of what it looks like, right, like really good defense that's really going to grind you out defensively, and efficient offense. But the inputs are different in terms of how both teams get to what they do.

We know it's going to be a major challenge tomorrow, but our guys are excited for it.

Q. Bob, talked with the players about this a little bit earlier, about taking the confidence from that win and carrying it over to this game with San Diego State. How are you able to do that and temper a little bit the pregame jitters or jitters that come with the idea of you guys getting to this point?

BOB RICHEY: Well, you know, one thing I've told our team, the neat part about this is the story is obviously on a much bigger stage and a much greater audience at this point. But it hasn't changed for us internally. I think that's been a good thing.

Y'all have heard this, the two words we've drawn on all year, joy and urgency. As we were going through the process of this year and the expectation that hey, they've got the two fifth-years back, and we've got to make sure that hey, we've got to win every game, and man, we've got to get back to the championship -- we really were able probably in the middle of the season around New Year's to kind of say, hey, you know what, we've got to have a little bit more joy in this and we don't get many of these.

To see how they've responded, they've only lost two games in this calendar year. Just to see how they've come together -- one of the deals we've come up with in order to have that joy is to understand that -- we've been saying this for a couple weeks now. We had to go to Sanford, sold-out crowd, to win the regular season, and we won down there the last game of the regular season on national TV.

And one of the things we've been saying is the noise around the game gets bigger as you play in more important games. What you're going to see on your phone and what you're going to read is going to get louder. The game is the same, and we have to have that mentality. The game is the same.

What we have to go do is we have -- they're going to try their best to get to their identity tomorrow; we're going to try our best to get to our identity tomorrow. And we've got to understand what that clock starts ticking 20 less, that everything inside the lines is just the game and everything around it will be there.

You've got to normalize this as best you can. I think our group has done a pretty good job with that. I've never been in this tournament in any capacity in my life. I've got to admit the blue signs and the lockers and the lights and all -- it's pretty cool. And that's where the joy and urgency comes into play. Like hey, we can enjoy this, but hey, we can prepare and we can understand when this game starts, when this walk-through starts, when this practice starts, when we're having to do what we have to do to help win a game, we're going to be locked in. I think it's a similar message. The game is the same, but obviously the stage is a lot bigger.

Q. After things calmed down and you could dispassionately look at the box score and settle down and read into it, did you look at it and say, how the heck did we win this game looking at these numbers? Or was there a stat you could point to and say, that's why we won, except for the final score, of course?

BOB RICHEY: I'll be honest with you. I haven't seen a box score. Box scores don't win games. Will, guts, a group that's resolute, that's determined. A large, large percentage of teams would have folded up yesterday down 12. Twice.

I think what we've been able to learn in the last year with the buzzer beater not allowing us to get to the tournament in 42 years, what they've embraced -- as a society sometimes we think hard is bad, and we need to avoid hard. What this group has learned is that hard is just hard. But that doesn't mean it's bad. In some ways it's necessary.

What was neat about yesterday, I didn't look at a box score because you know what, is it was an unbelievable basketball game.

Listen, we got some breaks, okay. They missed a couple free throws. Kihei is an unbelievable player, and I hate to see that he has to see that last play, because that last play didn't decide the whole game. There were 60-something possessions before that that led to that moment.

But I think what's neat for our team is they just started -- going through what they went through and embracing it and staying united and being connected, they just started to understand, hey, you just navigate hard. When you get on the other side of it, you're better for it.

And that's why we've said it. I said it in the postgame after our championship, the whole idea of count it all joy when you go through hard things because it does create perseverance, and I think we drew on that yesterday. In the under-12 media it was just a conversation. I told them, look, guys, I know this is really difficult right now, we're down 50-38, it feels really, really hard out there. But if we don't make a strike now, this game is going to get away from us.

To see how they worked through that. I wish we would have had audio on the time-out when Mike Bothwell fouled out. It's the most incredible player-led huddle in my time coaching and maybe in my time as playing. He walked over there and I was having a conversation with the referee, and he had gotten on my chair and he's looking at our team and when I got in I could hear -- I could hear him say, you don't need me to win this game. This team is going to win this game. This whole program is built on team, and just because I'm not out there doesn't mean we can't win.

He said, I'm going to cheer and I'm going to give every bit of energy I have into pushing you guys as far as I can. But listen, don't think because I'm not out there we can't win.

Man, it just energized the whole group. Slawson looked right at him and he goes, we're going to go out here and fight so you can put this jersey on again.

When you have a group like that, you don't have to look at a box score, because you know what, I'm sure it is ugly. I know what it looked like at halftime. 34 percent from floor and 26 percent from three and they had eight more rebounds than we had, and it was 16-8 in the paint.

But isn't that what this is all about? You just find ways.

I think that's what's been neat about this team. They continue to find ways to win together.

Q. Obviously you coached under Niko, San Diego State is familiar with Colorado State's offense. I wonder if you could talk about your offensive philosophies. You see some Princeton in there but some modernized version of it. How similar is it to what Niko does and how much of it is your own stuff?

BOB RICHEY: That's a really good question. It's a blend. There's definitely I would say some Princeton concepts that are woven in. We like to play a little faster than your normal Princeton stuff. We probably have three different layers. Not to get all technical with it, but there's some concepts, there's some ball screen concepts, there's some spacing concepts. I'm a very curious individual, and when I was an assistant, Barclay Radebaugh was my first boss and he let me start calling offense at the age of 26.

And I realized how it was hard to get good looks, and you start to develop your philosophy and you think it's all about the plays, it's all about the sets, do we have enough sets. You're looking for that perfect play.

Then over time you realize -- you're like, you know what, it's not the plays, it's basically like music, like can you make it harmonious, can you put rhythm in it.

I started studying a lot of people when I was an assistant. I took a program a year in the off-season, I'd watch every single game. Lennie Acuff is somebody that I'm not at the podium without him, to be honest with you. And he's the head coach at Lipscomb, but he was the head coach at Alabama Huntsville. And I was mesmerized by his team's offense.

I watched two seasons of it, and I was like, if I ever get an opportunity to play and lead a team, this is how I'm going to play offense.

When I got the head job, I had a hard decision to make because we didn't play like that when I was an assistant, and I had four seniors coming back, and I'm 34. I'm the seventh youngest head coach in the country, so I'm having these days in my office where I'm going, am I really going to go against what these guys have always done. And we averaged around 67 points a game, but I think for me personally I want to play a little faster and I want to play a little freer. This is what I want to do. I remember making the decision, I was like, you know what, I've got to do what I'm convicted in.

So Lennie actually came to Greenville and he spent two whole days with me, and we went through it all. We don't play exactly the same now. Rick Byrd is somebody, head coach at Belmont I used to watch a ton, John Beilein, I used to watch a ton. Jay Wright in a lot of different ways. Tony Bennett is even on that list of people that -- I probably have like six or seven coaches. I've kind of just made a little hybrid of it.

Niko ended up going to it very similarly in COVID. Myself, him, Lennie Acuff, we had a bunch of Zooms together and it's been really neat because in the off-season you can kind of throw ideas off of one another. We're all pretty close, what's working, what's not working, how are people guarding it.

So it's just a little bit of hodgepodge, and then every year we try to innovate a little bit.

But tomorrow with how they play defense, they're going to challenge us. They're going to challenge us with the pressure. They're going to challenge us with some of the veer switching and how they play the ball screen and just their size, and we know that.

It's going to be critical that we find good rhythm, knowing that they're going to try their best to take us out of rhythm.

Q. Has there been maybe a quick moment or a quiet moment for you in the last 24 hours where you've let yourself just kind of experience what you guys went through in that last shot and winning that way in your first trip to the NCAA Tournament, or are you still like, nope, got to look forward?

BOB RICHEY: Quick or quiet would probably not be two adjectives I would use, but I've tried my best. I was walking around last night -- I woke up this morning just making sure I wasn't at Disney and dreaming all this. But it did happen, and we were a part of it.

I just kept thinking, like hey, glory to God to be a part of it, and the gratitude, just like thankful, because this business can be hard. Losing is no fun. Winning is a lot of fun. But when you can win a game like that on that stage, I'm sure it's going to be something when all this is over that we'll try to get away for a little bit and really appreciate what we've been able to do.

But I'm just fortunate enough to be a part of it.

Q. That will, determination, heart, the stuff that doesn't appear in the box score, how much of that can you spot in the recruiting process, and how much is developed once they walk through your door?

BOB RICHEY: Oh, man, that's a good question right there. Nature versus nurture, eh? I like it. I think it's both. I think there's some indicators. We look for high potential individuals, and I think there's some indicators that you can look for to figure that out.

We get a lot of credit for how we developed Jalen Slawson, 19 points, 31 fouls his freshman year, but you could see he wanted to grow. He wanted to get better.

We work really hard. I tell every recruit that comes in, look, if you come here, we're going to challenge you as much as anybody in the country, and that strain is going to create the struggle which is going to create the growth.

But I think it's both. I think you've got to have -- look, and we do a lot of different things. We assess them in terms of their personality and that -- it's not like there's a right answer, but what fits here. We've got some things that we feel like, hey, this is what we look for, this is what we would say no to, this is what we would say yes to.

A lot of times it's personality, it's fit, it's makeup, it's how competitive they are, it's the support system around it, do they value the things -- Furman is a top 50 liberal arts degrees in the country, so you have to value that. You have to want that, the Furman network and how unbelievable it is.

The Further the Man program that we've created that's a systematic leadership program run through our program that last year we had 25 speakers come in. Well, not everybody wants to do that. But if you can get a group that says, hey, the way you do anything is the way you do everything, and I want to find what best looks like, and you have a group that pushes them, like high standard, but then you also have a group that cares for them in like a deep care fashion, I think that's when you see tremendous growth.

And I really think that's probably -- even more so than the schematics, I think that's why we've been able to sustain the winning that we've been able to do.