PGA CHAMPIONSHIP

May 18, 2022

Dave Stockton

Southern Hills Country Club

Flash Quotes

JOHN DEVER: Good afternoon. Welcome back to the 2022 PGA Championship here at Southern Hills Country Club. We are pleased to be joined by two-time PGA champion Dave Stockton. Dave, thanks for being here with us in a place that I know is special and dear to your heart. We'll ask you about 1970 in a moment, but I want to ask you, Collin Morikawa won the Open Championship last year, his second major championship. What was easier for you to win, the first one or your second PGA?

DAVE STOCKTON: Pretty easy question. The first one was the easiest because I played the best here at Southern Hills. Congressional, my first impression was that 20 people will be ready to shoot themselves because there's no way in hell I should have won at Congressional, but it turned out that I did.

You can't script how you're going to win, but here at Southern Hills, this was probably one of the finest weeks I ever played on Tour.

JOHN DEVER: What set you apart that week? Take us back a little bit.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, I think the biggest thing is prior to it, a good month ahead of it, my dad had me start reading this book, Psycho-Cybernetics but Maxwell Maltz. It was not fun to read. It was like reading sandpaper.

I finally got through it, yellow lined what was important, so in 20 minutes I could skim over the book. I took out two things, one, to be aggressive, and the other thing is anything you want to achieve, I'm taking that as a golfer, you wanted to visualize you'd already won it.

So rather than coming out here and hoping that I played well, hoping I made the cut, all these different things, I stepped on the first tee on Monday morning at about 7:00 because I finished by 10:45, and I visualized I had already won the tournament.

In fact, I came so far as to come down the 18th hole after my drive, and I'm looking up at the amphitheater behind the 18th green and there wasn't a soul there because I was that early. But I visualized on Sunday that there were going to be a mass of people there.

Little did I know I'd be playing with Arnold Palmer, and basically the back side of that story is my wife, Cathy, is eight months pregnant; going to have Ronnie exactly 30 days later after the win, and she never set foot on the golf course.

So my mindset was I had already won it and I was going to go out and enjoy it, and I did enjoy the entire week, exception for your Augusta 100 degree temperature and 100 percent humidity. That was a struggle. But other than that, this was a tournament that I won.

JOHN DEVER: Any of the differences you might have seen on the golf course today versus back then? And what is it about Southern Hills that really stands the test of time? It's one of the great American championship stages.

DAVE STOCKTON: I think especially with what Hanse and the redo, what they've done, they turned a really good golf course into a really great golf course. It looks on some holes not completely different but a much different view than what I had in 1970.

There were a lot more trees, much more tree lined than what it is now. But the layout was there. It's just a phenomenal test of golf, and it's been fun to listen to the guys this week.

Just got through talking to Molinari, and he commented he didn't realize this was where I won my first major.

Probably the highlight of this week, my wife Cathy is in the back of the room. I took her out on Tuesday and we spent almost two hours walking around, showing her holes that -- some holes I didn't like like 8 and 13 that weren't very kind to me, but other holes like 7 that were very good to me.

She came away with the fact that maybe I was a good golfer, because this is one hell of a hard golf course.

Q. It's a challenge just to walk around.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, it is. I'm rooting for Tiger. It's going to be -- at least it's not August because it would really have taxed you in August.

In my case in '70 Gatorade had been? Invented. I drank a full can of Gatorade every three hole and never used a public restroom. It just sweats out of you. You had to drink fluids.

To me the heat was the hardest thing I had to fight, that along with Arnold Palmer.

Q. Since you're wearing a Ryder Cup shirt, I hope I can ask you a Ryder Cup question. There's all these stories of the '87 Ryder Cup of Jack Nicklaus trying to get the fans involved and trying to cheer for the team and be partisan and they just wouldn't do it, and by '91 for the first time, American fans were the partisan rowdy American fans that we know today. Curious from your perspective, was it just time that changed that? Was it losing? Was it something that you did?

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, let's go back and blame Jack to start with. I mean, he's the one that thought it would be a good idea that we get the Europeans involved. I mean, it was fine when we were playing Great Britain and Ireland. It was fun, it was competition, but we also knew we were going to win.

When I was captain at Kiawah I had a lot to think about in '91 because I figured if Nicklaus can get beat on his own golf course four years earlier, and Raymond followed me to be tied across the pond, you know, I knew it was for real. It wasn't a cake walk.

I think the Ryder Cup now has gotten -- especially after Whistling Straits -- to the point just where it should be. We should be favored over here and they should be favored over there, and rightly so. We shellacked them for a long time and they were killing us. It was six plus years for me for us to get the Ryder Cup back prior to Kiawah. Cathy and I spent the better part of a year of our life going around the country publicizing the fact that we don't play for money out here; this is for the pride.

They ran up the flag. I can remember my first Ryder Cup was at Old Warson in '71, and I'm watching -- Cathy and I are standing Billy and Shirley Casper raised the American flag and they're bawling their eyes out, and minutes later I got to hit the first tee shot playing with Nicklaus.

That thing looked the size of a marble. I mean, it just -- there was a lot of tension, and you did, you had to have your wits about yourself. But again, it's not like today. That's the exciting part. I think it's one of the most exciting things I've been is a captain and assistant captain to Azinger at Valhalla in 2008 and playing in a couple of them, there's nothing better, nothing better than playing for your country.

Q. Sounds like you almost had to teach the American fans a little bit to understand what this was.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, Bernhard Gallagher, my counterpart on the European side, kept thinking I was trashing him and doing all sorts of stuff, but my point of view was I wanted the American fans to get emotional, and I never did go over to the tent, the hospitality tent where I guess it was just rowdy as heck.

They had American side would be yelling chants, and there is no chance that we can compete with the Europeans. No chance in heck with the ditties they do off the first tee and all this stuff.

I can still see Boo Weekley going off the first tee at Valhalla riding his driver down the fairway. That got them quieted down a bit. It's something to be celebrated. We have a wonderful game, very historic and longstanding. That's why I go back to Nicklaus. What a decision between he and Tony Jacklin -- one, he conceded the putt to Tony; that led to the concession, all these different things. Now look at it, we look forward to it.

Yeah, my shirt says Congressional 2037. I'm going to be an assistant. I'll only be 97, so I'm kind of looking forward to it. It's been a part of our life and it's a special one, and it's neat to see.

Q. As a Ryder Cup expert, I wonder, we had the two captains here today. Could you give us a summary of what happened at Whistling Straits last year, and what is your prediction for Rome next year and if you think the Europeans will be favored or not.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, the Europeans should be favored. One of the things we do -- we'll see if we repeat the mistake we made in France. I mean, there was a positive force going to France and there was a lot of -- quite a few of the past captains there. It was a neat party, special, very special.

What transpired, I heard it was a tight golf course. Well, as soon as you say tight I'm thinking trees. They could have killed sheep there. The grass is this deep. We have some big hitters on the American side. But unfortunately you had to find your golf ball.

My good buddy, I just talked to him, Molinari, he and his partner, they were, what, 5-0 was all they were? And I think only four or five of the Americans had ever seen the golf course.

Now, figure out that they'd played that thing for 30 years. I thought it was a new course, that nobody had played it. So my question now is how many, and I hope the PGA has some type of corporate thing before it or plays the Italian Open, but the problem is the Italian Open is against one of our major tournaments. So I'm not sure if they can or not.

But our lack of knowledge over there, plus I thought it was -- we were inadequate. We just got killed. I don't suspect Zach Johnson is going to fall in that trap. He will at least know a better part of what's going to transpire over there, but I think the Europeans should undoubtedly be the favorites.

We kind of bit them a little bit back at Whistling Straits. I thought Steve Stricker did an unbelievable job. It made me proud, because somebody got through and they commented that Stricker's job was kind of on the line of what I did at Kiawah, and Azinger did it at Valhalla to Faldo.

That's the way it should be. We should win over here. I will not tell you, I was very glad I got to captain on this side of the pond because that was a very hard job to go over there.

I'm looking forward to it. Cathy and I will be there if we can with bells on and trying to support it.

I'm hoping -- I'm assuming Molinari will either be one of the players or at least he'll be an assistant obviously, but I can't wait.

Q. I want to ask you about the relationship the PGA forms with the host club when he win. I know you have terrific relationships not only with folks here at Southern Hills? But Congressional, where we are playing our women's championship just about a month's time. How special are those relationships? They play themselves forth over decades, don't they?

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, for sure. Right now the PGA has got to be rethinking, where some of the northern courses you could play in August you can't play in May. Next year at Oak Hill is going to be a challenge, but eventually we're going to have to go a little bit further south. I know it's going to be -- just because it's the earlier part of the year.

I like the rotational change because I think by the time you get to August -- it was fine when we did not have the Playoffs coming up, looming before the end of August. But now we've got that, so now I think this rotation in this time of year, you've had the Masters, now we come up on the PGA when everybody is still fresh and they haven't run themselves in the ground, and I suspect it's going to be unbelievable.

But yeah, the rotation of what they're going to have -- and I'm excited. Congressional is in the rotation; Quail Hollow is in the rotation; Valhalla is in it; and we're going to go to Frisco for the first time down in the Dallas area.

So yeah, the rotation is very interesting. I threw one thing at them. I hope they take the girls because it's too short for us, but I hope they take the PGA women to Cherry Hills would be a great spot. Because it's too short for us, but it would be an unbelievable venue for the women to play on.

Q. A couple names that you think might -- this golf course as it plays today -- might have a good week out here if you had to put your thinking cap on?

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, you're not going to go too much past Scheffler, for starters. Whether Tiger can last out here, obviously -- the four of us, this is the first course to have four PGAs on it, and to have Tiger and I as well as Raymond Floyd and Nick Price be the four, I'm curious to see who's going to be the fifth, because they've had good champions here and deservedly so. This is a very, very strong test of golf.

I'm hoping for two people that I'd love to see. I'd like to see McIlroy win his third PGA. He's had pretty good luck -- when we worked together he won Congressional and the Open, where I won the second PGA. Then he wins it where I had the Ryder Cup there at Kiawah, and then he comes to Valhalla and wins where I was an assistant with Azinger, and now he comes here where I won my first.

So I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls some magic out of a hat.

The other one I would be rooting for would be Jordan Spieth. I'd love to see him get the Grand Slam. There wouldn't be two more people that would be more fitting to get it than for McIlroy to knock off his Masters bugaboo and Jordan to get the PGA here.

But who am I ignoring? I'm ignoring Collin. I'm ignoring Rahm. All these guys. I think it's going to be a heck of a race to the end here.

The footnote to remember is there have been 10 championships here. Other than Tiger and myself, we're the only two of the ten that didn't lead after the first round. The other eight championships, the people led wire to wire all four rounds.

Tiger and I picked it up and we were tied for the lead after 36, but not one in 10 -- I was listening to Jim Nantz talk about that -- has ever dropped the ball coming in. I trust they'd better get off to a fast start.

Q. There was a picture of you putting in the media center for your victory here --

DAVE STOCKTON: It probably went in.

Q. Probably did, knowing you. Do you recall what kind of putter you were using in those days?

DAVE STOCKTON: Yeah, it's sitting in the -- I just sent it here last week. It's sitting in the case.

Q. And it is what?

DAVE STOCKTON: It's a Ray Cook putter. Most Ray Cook putters in those days had two lead -- I had three that had three lead strips in it, and there were two of them I alternated between. They have the putter sitting there. They have a driver they claimed that's mine, but I have no idea what amateur gave them that driver, but it's not mine.

Q. Why did you have the difference between the two and the three lead plugs or strips?

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, I just liked the balance of it. The two strips, it had a higher face on it. Mine were much thinner. I always have rolled the ball. I just always liked the feel of a Ray Cook.

I used -- I put lead tape on the back of it, because basically the putters are very, very light, and back in those days in the '70s the greens weren't nearly as fast as they are today. So I had to put a little more weight on it just to get a better feel.

Q. The roster of champions that have won here, it really is just about second to none. To be a prominent portion of that must be gratifying.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, it was very gratifying for me. I mean, the underlying thing, which is hilarious, is that I was part of the youth movement that was not happy that if you won the PGA you got a lifetime exemption.

We got the rule passed just over three weeks before playing here, and I was so glad that now whoever won was going to win at Southern Hills got a 10-year exemption, until I walked up the 18th fairway with a three-shot lead and go, oh, my God. My good buddy Geiberger, Dave Marr, Bobby Nichols, they all got lifetime, and here I'm about ready to get 10 years. I win it six later and all I end up with is 16 years for winning it twice.

By our way of thinking there should have been a time limit, and that's rightly so. Golfers just keep on playing if they're exempt. Not much else to do in those days. So now it makes a lot of sense.

But it did stop me for a moment. That was kind of stupid that I kind of put a strong word that we ought to just give 10 years.

Q. Can you just talk about last night's dinner. Did it feel a little surreal that Phil wasn't there? And two, my understanding is you spoke. Can you give us any idea what you spoke about.

DAVE STOCKTON: Sure. The last two, Kiawah and here, were different. I'll take partial credit for that because the PGA of America turned the -- let me stop.

I always wanted to win the Masters, because to win the Masters I would be able to go in on Tuesday night and be a fly on the wall.

In my case if I would have won in '74 when I should have, when Player beat me, I could listen to Byron Nelson or I could listen to Sam Snead or I could listen to whoever was there, and I wouldn't have to say anything but I'd be getting a bunch of knowledge.

So when I won the PGA in '70, sure enough, I show up in '71 I am the youngest guy in the room basically, and I'm listening to these stories, and it was phenomenal. It was just great.

Well, somewhere over the year I remember five years ago we're on the East Coast playing the PGA, and I'm at the Champions Dinner. Davis Love is sitting at the end; there's 20 of us at this table. He's on the left at the far end; I'm on the right at this end.

I have no idea who these 20 people are sitting between us, and you I absolutely flipped out. I said because there's a reason why a lot of the champions don't want to come. I thought the PGA -- the USGA, you win the Open, they've never had a dinner, not that I know about.

It's like, okay, you won, you're lucky you won, the rest of the guys shot themselves and they're really mad because they didn't enjoy the ride.

Well, the PGA shouldn't be that way. The PGA is slightly fairer than the U.S. Open is. Kerry Haigh does an unbelievable job in setting up the golf course.

So consequently at Kiawah last year we had I think six or seven people in the room besides just players, and like we did last night, we sat around and we -- they can't separate us out because there's so many players, you know, former champions, that it was unbelievable.

We ended the night, and everybody stayed. I think it blew the PGA officers away.

We were just having fun because we usually just drive off and you leave and you drive your courtesy car and you're gone until the next day. So last night I spoke. It was surreal for me to be -- I'm used to being the youngest and now I was clearly the oldest, which at 80 years of age that kind of shakes you up a bit. But I talked to them obviously the story of being here, because this meant so much to Cathy and I and my family and everything.

And then at the end Mark Brooks got up, they got him up, and he immediately had everybody comment what's their worst shot and best shot, and of course Collin with that driver he hit on 16 or whatever he hit out there at Harding, he drove the green a foot and a half from the hole or something, that was his best.

Everybody had a similar story and everything. But it was fun. That's what it should be about. Last night was a -- I felt bad. I really feel bad that neither one of the other two guys, Tiger and I being the two that have won here, but Nick Price and Raymond weren't here, and I wish they had have been.

I don't quite understand why because I think it's very important for us as champions to come back. I'm pretty assuming that at the Masters you come back -- if I'd have won it I'd be there every year, and that's what this should be.

And last night -- this is two years now we've had it, so we had no distractions and it was really neat.

But it had changed, because when we started Cathy remembers we had all the wives and husbands would get together, and then the wives would go off and Barbara Nicklaus ran that group, and then we had the guys get together.

Afterwards of course you're trying to confirm back to your spouses what happened because they want to know everything we talked about.

But no, it was a fun evening. Phil was not missed. I think Phil would have been a big distraction whether he was here -- the story here this week is the PGA. The story here, and I alluded to that fact and I congratulated the younger guys that have won, especially Collin and stuff. The game of golf has been elevated so much by their play and their physical abilities that they've had to redo these golf courses. Luckily this has been done unbelievably well.

But to think where golf is at, it's a phenomenal situation. I mean, from every aspect. That's why you can't pick a -- you're going to have to get lucky to win. You're going to have to play really, really good golf this week.

Q. Chipping seems so important out here and some of the great chippers of all time, yourself, Hubert, Tiger, Raymond Floyd have won here. How important is it and why at this course? And is there a technique or anything that really works here?

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, I think what works here is you have to have an imagination. The world is full of left-sided brain people that try to mechanically do everything, and I think you have to have an imagination. You mentioned Hubert Green. There's a reason he won the Open here in '77. You see a shot and you can picture what you ought to do with it. Whether you have the capability to do that is a moot point. But basically I knew coming out here when I played it, I'm not going to hit all the greens, I never have in any life, but my loved being around -- my golf courses for me started from 150 yards in because then I've got all my clubs are accuracy clubs and I can handle it.

This course -- the other aspect of this golf course is it doesn't favor a drawer of the ball or a fader of the ball because you have doglegs going both ways and in some cases they're pretty severe.

Someone that plays right brain very creative golf I think is going to do very well out here. You have to do that, because you're going to stumble out here. There's no way to avoid it.

Q. You were talking about the change in exemptions from lifetime to 10 years. How did you feel about the change for like the World Series of Golf and some other players that were 10-year exemptions, THE PLAYERS Championship, and they were changed to three and five-year exemptions. Did you have any input on those?

DAVE STOCKTON: I really don't have any comment because that happened after I already was on the Champions Tour and gone.

I think the room has to be made for the up and coming players. I don't think somebody deserved over -- in my case I got to thinking 10 years, oh, my God, if I can't get my game and do what I want to do in 10 years, that should be plenty of time.

You appreciated the fact that I could play every -- being a major champion at that time. But you have to adjust, and you have to -- in my mind you have to allow for the young blood to come up and be a factor, because that's what's exciting.

I'm always going to root for the underdog every time because I was an underdog for a long time, and that was our big thing here. Here I am, Arnold never won the PGA, so if he wins out here, he's going to win the Grand Slam.

On the other hand, I'd won four times on Tour and Sunday morning in the paper they called me, you know, unknown leads PGA, and I flipped out. I said, I may be known only in my own house, but I still thought winning four tournaments got me a little past unknown.

So I took that as a chip on my shoulder to prove that they were completely wrong. Cathy on the other hand had to be sitting in the clubhouse listening to everybody root for Arnold, which if I hadn't been playing I would have been rooting, too, because what a special person he was.

But it made my victory just that much sweeter.

JOHN DEVER: Dave, thanks so much for finding some time for us. You're always welcome, and we hope to visit with you again soon.