U.S. SENIOR OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP

June 27, 1995

Dave Stockton

DAVE STOCKTON: I think you could ask anybody, in 1976, if they could remember what they did, I think it would be phenomenal. This golf course is so tough. The only thought I had was the fact that I played so bad, and I want -- I could imagine what the other guys felt like. It was undoubtedly a Major that the golf course won. Totally, when I won my first Major in Southern Hills in Tulsa when I felt I was in command of the tournament, in fact, I did have a 7 shot lead with 9 to go; I was feeling great. And here at Congressional, I was just trying to finish playing; this is the first time I have been back. I remember I hit the 11th fairway; I remember I hit it in the woods and saw my younger son who was sitting on the ground putting all the sticks together and made a teepee. See, the people -- I am going out in the boondocks. I see my 6-year-old just sitting there all by himself. Everyone was going around him. So then I got up on the next hole, on 14; I am thinking, "Boy, I put it in the left bunker there; almost hit it in the right woods trying to go for the green" which I shouldn't have done to begin with. There is no bunker there anymore; I like that change. I am going, "I like that change. I am excited to be back." This golf course, the mounds, they knocked down; so much better driving golf course than it was before. You got to remember most of my recollection of the woods and stuff like that, I remember 4 was a blind tee shot. You can now see the fairway. 6 is probably the biggest change on the golf course; it is a phenomenal par 5. You can stand on the tee; you can see the green. Used to have a huge hill. I didn't remember if it was a par 4 or 5. I remember I didn't play it very good. Of course the 2 new holes for us are 17 and 10. 17 is a much longer par 4 than 17 used to be. It will be a longer club, but 17 before blind tee shot kind of uphill second shot. Certainly, you could see the green this year for our second shot on 17. Big change obviously between 10. We play now a little bitty par 3 where I hit a 7-iron today and Weiskopf hit an 8-iron. Aoki hit 7, I guess, and the old 16 where I could vividly remember hitting my Top Flight, you could hit any kind of ball you wanted to use. I carried a Top Flight because I could hit it 20 yards longer per club. I remember I hit 227; I think it was to the hole. I would have had to hit a 3-wood with my Top Flight. I could hit 3-iron; knocked it about 12 feet. I was praying I could 2-putt; so I like the shorter par 3. Going to be a little bit of confusion getting driven from the 9th green to the 10th tee past the 10th green. I hope they find some quieter carts. They might look into that. They have these ones that are making a heck of a lot of noise. They are like little gasoline things. You could hear them coming from 100 yards. But the golf course, if you go out there and look at it, I think tee to green, finest shape as I have seen it. Obviously, twice the rough we have had on any other course this year. Obviously, the weather we are getting now is helping. If the sun comes out you are losing guys; it is just real thick. I am planning to hit the fairways. I am playing these holes. You get to understand it. "Oh, I hit that 3, oh, I hit that 3, oh, I do not think I will go over there." I like my game that I have now rather than the one I had in '76. The greens are another matter. I don't understand what happened to the greens here. I have never seen USGA greens this soft. Doesn't seem to be much base to them. I think most of the difficulty is going to come on the putting greens. If you drive the ball straight, you are going to be playing off probably the best fairways we have had all year. And whoever is handling the greens -- I didn't putt on them too much today -- I am assuming they are going to get faster. They are going to be the difficult part of this week.

DAVE STOCKTON: Softer means easier getting the ball close to the hole because the ball is going to stop, but if the putting surfaces aren't smooth, you are going to get a hell of a time getting them to the hole. They tend to spike up because they are soft. I assume they are going to roll over. Can't do anything about the water that is continually -- there is not enough space. Weiskopf is a better example. He hits the ball harder than I do. At least six times. He had a clump of mud on the ball from the green. . . That would be this size (indicating) stuck to the ball. So you are hitting it and it is going right down through grass on the surface; picking up the underlying stuff, which is unusual. So I don't know -- I mean, we are all going to have to do the same thing.

DAVE STOCKTON: Yeah, it is very long, but you got to remember back in '76, I didn't hit it very well. I think the golf course is playing probably right now 15 yards longer a hole than what it did when we played the PGA. I am glad to see them make 10 a par 5 because it always played like a par 5 for me. That is one hole I think -- I shouldn't say "easier" because it will probably jump out and bite me. I could remember the fairway being much closer to the water more so than it is now. There is like a 15 yard collar (sic). In fact, there is 2 bunkers off the tee on the right-hand side that keep you from going into the water. Of course, the water up on the green which you got pretty heavy grass right in front of it, so -- I remember it being shade before, of course, we played the tee to the next tee down. It was a par 4, although it was a very difficult one. I suspect that -- well, on 11, that was a hole I hit 3-wood as was number 5; both of those were 2 holes that I hit 3-wood before, but I hit driver, 5-iron to 5 today and I remember it being like a driver 8-iron, and I remember -- I remember 11 being a 3-wood 8-iron -- 3-wood 7-iron and I hit a driver -- I hit 3-wood 4-iron today. So I will be hitting a driver off of 11 from now on.

DAVE STOCKTON: No. Steve, I don't think so. I think the golf course I am so pleased that they have changed the holes; they changed from the perspective of what you looked at. I mean, I don't think anybody likes blind tee shots. Congressional had a whole bunch of them. Theoretically, they have none -- you can see exactly where they are going. As for length, obviously, being one of the shorter hitters, I would love to see a shorter golf course. In fact, the only dilemma I am looking at right now since I am now carrying a third wedge, I would take out a 2-iron or 4-wood -- after about three holes today I told my caddie I said the 2 clubs we are going to have in the bag, they are going to be both 2 iron and the 4-wood. Right now I am leaning taking out an 8-iron or 9-iron, something like that, because I don't anticipate ever using them.

DAVE STOCKTON: You would have to ask Lee Patterson. I don't know. I do not ever pay attention to how long they are. Obviously, if they got the holes and greens, that is all I am interested in. I think it may be -- certainly it will play its full length. I don't know if we played -- played it in a long time, that played its full length in a long time just because of the ball; every time I hit the fairway, the ball stopped dead, so it is playing a true 6900. It was good watching Weiskopf today. Luckily he would still hit a 1-iron off the tee and it would go as far as my driver. If the people weren't watching well enough, they were saying, man, Stockton could put it is off real well. Steve, it is playing very, very long and I know it is playing longer than 76. I look at the names that are up there. David Graham was up there and Jerry Pate, John Schlee, Charlie Coody. It wasn't the longer hitters that prevailed which you think they would. I think now -- I think it is a much fairer golf course for longer hitters because you don't have those blind tee shots. Although Weiskopf still, I bet you he hit 6 or 7 holes either hit a 3-iron or 1-iron off the tee. I am swinging away with a driver all the time?

DAVE STOCKTON: Oh, God, yes. '76, I was -- if they hadn't had the rain out on Sunday, I don't think I would have been in the top ten or fifteen. I -- I was 3 over par when they stopped it. My first 5 holes I recall and then came back the next day on Monday and that is one thing I do not like, if we play a shot in major championship, it ought to count. I mean, it worked for my benefit. I came out the next day, same 5 holes, I am 2 under; 5 shot swing. My game was not particularly good. Only two fairways I hit 11 and 18. I hit 3-wood off the tee wood on 18. I was so excited to see it go straight. 16th green, par 3, I hit the 11th green; I didn't hit about two or three greens the last nine, so I wasn't very happy with my game. My game right now is a whole lot better.

DAVE STOCKTON: I think very definitely. I mean, this is a whole knew experience for me. Two years ago when I was No. 1 I was very proud of the fact and I went out last year which has been well documented just -- I -- just my only goal was to prove what a fluke. I didn't anticipate doing better. I did better moneywise. I didn't win as many tournaments. And entered this tournament after being number one 2 years in a row with confidence sky high and willing to push myself another year, you know, by pushing myself meaning I am going to play a whole lot of tournaments. I am not taking much vacation time and I am focusing on golf. I am -- I feel that I am trying to get my best shot to promote the Senior Tour. I am trying to be a good representative which I did on both tours; tried to be a good representative. But the Senior Tour offers us the chance for tons of exposure more than you would get on a regular Tour. I sat there watching GHO or juniors playing this weekend, yelling and screaming at the TV set, because they are watching Greg Norman walk up on the green and watching this; I am going show us some god damn golf. I told David last night I said I hope you aren't over confident because you are going to have to be number one or knock them off before they publicize you. I was so mad I couldn't see straight. It is not like CBS Sports would normally do that. I remember watching Augusta almost to the point you see too much golf and you sure as hell aren't watching someone walking up to the tee. I guess they televise the regular tournaments differently than they do the Majors. I watched Norman and Fuzzy walk all around the lake on 17. David is playing 18 and I would have loved to see what the swings were looking like.

DAVE STOCKTON: 2. He lost the ball I guess on 13, made 6. But in answer to your question, the Senior Tour because of being the lead money winner and playing as many tournaments as I have, 14 tournaments last year, I was in the top 3 and -- I mean, you get exposure, I am getting recognized a lot more. At this stage in life I am having a lot of fun. I remember coming out here in being impressed by two people specifically Lee Trevino won when I watched him in Palm springs how hard he prepared for the Senior Tour. The other, Mike Hill who I thought had a fair career; not great on the regular Tour, certainly not as good as his brother Dave; all of a sudden comes out here and through hard work and determination becomes a very, very good player. So I consequently try to pattern myself, kind of after that work ethic. It has worked out fine.

DAVE STOCKTON: I think that is true on the regular Tour. I definitely don't think that is true on the Senior Tour. Senior Tour you have the Larry Laoretties, Zembriskies. You have a special game, I think, very special Tom Wargo. What, I think, he has jumped up and done well, but I think he is going to continue to do well for a number of years which to me makes it very special. But no, I think the Senior Tour does publicize a lot of the unknown guys that come up, but seems to me that they just throw their hands up on the regular Tour and say, oh, they are all the same; there is no big stars, which is BS anyway, but it is just like I talked to Junior, I said last night I said I was really -- first of all, I was glad that he shaved the goatee and second of all that he didn't wear his dark glasses. I asked him why. He said it was overcast and I said, you know from my point of view, it is great that he didn't because when they did show him, I mean, he is full of enthusiasm. If you are watching, you could see what, I think I could see in my own son; somebody that really likes the public and can deal with it and will stand out from the crowd if he gets the opportunity.

DAVE STOCKTON: No, Ron will caddie for me at the TPC where we will defend up in Dearborn in two weeks. He turned pro about a month and a half ago. He is playing Nebraska and Kansas Tour. In fact, he made his -- well be his third check but first on their Tour last week on Friday when he played in Wichita, and he is playing a Tour. They play Monday, Tuesday; off Wednesday and play Thursday, Friday. He is in Lawrence, Kansas which he thought was the pitts of the world until he got there and found out that KU is there; now he thinks it is a pretty cool town. I don't know what that means. The only tournament he will caddie for me is the TPC. He leaves that Sunday night and goes back to Firethorn in Lincoln, Nebraska. They have a championship on Monday and Tuesday. One of the things -- then we are going to have -- see if he can come out and caddie out for David some.

DAVE STOCKTON: Isn't Jack going to come in? I am serious.

DAVE STOCKTON: Okay, he will tell you. I mean, Jack is phenomenal. Jack could be right. If I say 10 under, someone will kill me. If I say something, I would say even par. I can't see anybody killing this thing. I mean, it is just a handful of guys that are going to do well here. Number one, you are going to have to be long, I think. I don't think the greens are good enough to benefit the good putters because I think everybody is going to have trouble. It goes to a handful, Weiskopf who I played today. I think is great. Norman, I'd say Hale, great chance, but he is not a whole lot longer than I am. Jack is certainly going to play well. But, I am not being facetious when I say "ask Jack." For years Jack will give you a number and he will be on it. Let us face it, we could win the U.S. Open events and you just hope to survive. I don't know what they are going to do to the greens. I don't know if they are going to keep them as soft; roll them or make them hard. I don't know what the weather-- I can't see somebody getting very far under par. I think 1976 all I remember the greens were absolutely perfect. I could remember the putt I had to win which was probably 12 to 15 feet. It was absolutely, absolutely like putting on astroturf. It was perfect; no blemish; next to last group playing and there was no way I was going to miss it. 15 footer right now in the conditions of these greens, not to say I wouldn't expect to make it, but it is going to be an adventure. But I am saying basically around par. I can't imagine somebody going way under.

DAVE STOCKTON: Well, Steve, I played 7, 8 in a row on the other Tour; especially in the summer time when my family could come out. With my bad back, I have historically, obviously, I always played better when I played a bunch because I am not killing myself. My problem is when I don't play golf things I do are not very beneficial to my golf game, whether it be hunting or fishing or going back home and working on the farm or something. I think the reason the Senior Tour -- obviously we can ride carts, number one, and number 2 we are only playing three days. And you are the type of player that doesn't get frazzled by playing ProAms, you basically working three days a week. I find that really, most people if you told them they only had to have a job and only work three days a week, they'd think God went to heaven. Consequently I don't know -- this is like 10 or 11 right now for me. I will skip next week and then I will play 5 and then I am off two weeks. I will play the remaining last 12 or whatever it is, I don't know. But I just don't think it is much of a grind.

DAVE STOCKTON: I think so in fact, I talked to him about it last week. I say, man, you got to start talking about playing these number of weeks in a row. 8 weeks in a row on the regular your is not like playing it on the Senior Tour. I said unless I don't know what he felt at Nashville. I do now after I talked to him, but I said I played my first one in Hawaii. I played three rounds. I was like having a prize fight where the other guy didn't show up. I danced around the ring for about 30 seconds and they handed me the belt and I was gone. I mean, I finished and I said, is this all there is to it. I did not realize -- you can't emphasize it how much pressure you are under to make the cut on the regular Tour. Because you don't get your exposure, your question indicated, you are not there on the weekends and what I saw on CBS, unless you are a superstar with a 6 shot lead, you are not going to get any television, period. Consequently there is more stress now. Senior Tour, we know we are going to be here. Although I managed to miss the cut at the PGA Seniors, West Palm Beach; which I thought I'd never could do. Odds are you know what you are going to finish on Sunday and three days makes the biggest difference, by far.

DAVE STOCKTON: I think it is an advantage to the player only in the fact that we know how honestly hard this golf course is. I think those of us that have been here in '76 and do remember it, first of all probably don't have any good memories of any good shots, that is my first impression. Second impression, the changes they made on the golf course they made all the golf course play aesthetically much easier, it looks better; therefore, your golf shots should be better. They have done a phenomenal job. Only glitch is, like I said, the greens. But the golf course sets up -- well, obviously, I mean, if you got a hole that is blind, you know, no matter how good you are, you don't know what is over the hump. You know you got deep grass on both sides but don't know exactly where the throw away is. Now you know exactly where it is. That is going to make for better playing. If that follows suit, we should shoot a couple of three or four shots lower than what we shot in '76. The length we discussed already, the golf course will play its honest length. It will be the longest course we played in a while.

DAVE STOCKTON: First of all, expect him to commit to the Senior Tour because is he not in the top 20 or on the Ryder point list, would be my opinion. I think he is going to learn real quick. That he's got a fourth now and a second and probably didn't play his best golf. Obviously would like to have the shot over again on 18 at Atlanta last week and didn't probably enjoy 3-putting the last hole at Nashville which cost him being second; dropped him back to fourth. I think he -- I am assuming that he is going to find out how much fun it is out here and I think he is going to do extremely well because like me I think is he a very good thinker. I don't think he is overly long and he is extremely good with all the irons, you know, he is a better long iron player than I am but again, most seen courses don't make a difference how long an iron player you are because you don't use that many. He is going to do extremely well. It is neat to have another marquis name come out here.