U.S. SENIOR OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP

June 25, 1997

Bob Toski

BOB TOSKI: Yes. I teach about six days a week, Monday through Friday. Sometimes on Saturday. And I play probably once a week.

BOB TOSKI: Well, you mean recently?

BOB TOSKI: I'm working -- I've just -- I've been working with Penny Hammel for the last year and a half. She just came back and won, which I was very delighted with. Penny is a nice young lady, and has kind of regained some of her desire to play again. And she went through a period there, where I believe she lost a brother of AIDS -- with AIDS and she was kind of despondent about playing on the Tour again, but she's got her game back where she wants to and was very surprised that she won this quickly. I told her she'd have the best year she was going to have, this year. But I didn't think she would win this early. I work with Tom Kite a little bit. Of course, Tom has about eight or nine teachers. He's always looking for a secret. There isn't any.

BOB TOSKI: No, I wasn't. I was happy that I qualified, but I have been playing well the last two or three months. I've been shooting my age and below. I shot 68 the week before that on a good golf course, and I just felt like I was going to shoot a good number. I didn't know how well I was going to play, because the course condition at that time at Weston Hills, they had 18, 20 inches of rain, and the course had been under water for four days, and they hadn't mowed the fairways for four days. We couldn't play clean and drop. So every time the ball would hit the fairway, would go about a foot or two, you would have mud on the ball. That was to my advantage. Because of my experience as a player, I was able to control the ball a little better than these other younger Senior Tour players, and fortunately, I played a good round of golf, pretty steady round, and had 26 putts and shot 71, was the only player under par. I was surprised that no one else did shoot under par. Jim Jewell shot 72, and Marion Heck won the third place in the playoff with 74.

BOB TOSKI: Well, first of all, I'm just happy to be competing. I miss playing on the Tour. Of course, I'm not an exempt player, and competitive golf is important for me, because I've always been a very competitive player. Playing customer golf is fun for awhile, but once you start giving golf lessons on the golf course, you lose your concentration to shoot a good score. I like to play competitive. I like to get back on the Tour as much as I can, because I can still play well, and I like to compete, and I like to be back with the fellows. I would, realistically, want to try to make the cut and shoot a number where I would be invited to play again next year on the automatic exemption list. What do you have to shoot to get -- first 16, is it --

BOB TOSKI: What is the regular tour?

BOB TOSKI: First 15. Yeah, I think it's probably similar to that, so, that is what I would like to try to accomplish this week. And not have to qualify next year. I like to -- I like to play in the Open because I think it's one of the best tests of golf that golf has. Any time the USGA sets a golf course up, they want par to be the winning score, and I think that's a great criteria for a test of golf, that par is a winning number. And from what I've heard this week, most of the players say that par will be the winning score, or probably one or two under. So that gives you an idea of what a great golf course this is and it's in wonderful shape, and if you don't put the ball in the fairway, you're not going to score well. Because the shots to the greens, they're very demanding, and the greens are going to be very, very quick. If you get above the cup, if you get above the hole, if you get past the flag in the rough, the touch factor is almost impossible to get the ball close. So, it's going to be quite a test of golf, and a guy like Graham Marsh who won last week who is a fine tee-to-green player, he -- and Gil Morgan should be probably the favorites to win.

BOB TOSKI: They bumped them up. I'm happy to hear that. That helps.

BOB TOSKI: Well, I was active until about '86, when I hurt my shoulder and had surgery on my left shoulder. And then I lost my exemption because I was out for six and a half months. I was in the money list. I was in the exempt part of that money list, the all-time money list, and then when I didn't play for six and a half months, I lost that exemption and never regained it, so now I'm not able to play, unless I get an invite to play.

BOB TOSKI: Not very many. Since '86 or 7, I haven't averaged more than two or three tournaments a year. I would like to try to play about six, but I haven't played that many.

BOB TOSKI: Well, my game is -- my golf -- you have to understand, my golf swing hasn't changed in 40, 50 years. If you look at my golf swing on a video right now, it looks like when I was the lead money winner in 1954. That's because my body weight hasn't changed very much. I weigh 135 pounds now. I weighed 118 when I was lead money winner. I don't think -- very few sports writers know I was 118 pounds when I was lead money winner in 1954. I was the lightest player in the history of the game, but now I'm the oldest player to qualify for the U.S. Open. So those are two unique things in my life. I didn't realize when I qualified, I was the oldest qualifier to ever qualify for the Senior Open. So that's something to tell my kids about.

BOB TOSKI: I'll tell you an interesting story. I'd like to share this with you fellows, because you probably -- if you want to go back in time, when I had finished winning the World Championship at Tam O'Shanter, Lew Worsham and Clayton Heffner were waiting for me outside the shower, and I had showered and dried off, put my towel around me, and Clayton and Lew said, "We're going to weigh you." And I said, "No, you're not going to weigh me." And I didn't want them to weigh me because I had told the press -- I had told everybody, when I went on Tour, I weighed 127 pounds and if you look at all the press on Bob Toski in the early '50s, they said 127-pound Bob Toski, but I was 118. So you remember Charles Ellis and the guy that was in the -- the kid who was in the sand, 118-pound weakling in the sand, was thrown in the sand, kicking the sand in his face. I said, "Well, that's not me." So, that's why I told everybody I weighed 127 pounds. But, they weighed me. They finally -- they actually carried me to the scale, and they put me on the scales, and Lew moved the bars back and forth, and I said, "Now, why did you weigh me? What's the big deal about weighing me? Now you know I'm not 127 pounds." He said, "I knew you were lying. You always told me you were 127 pounds." He said, "I knew you didn't weigh that much, but there was a reason why I weighed you." He said, "Bob, Cyril Walker won the Open at 118 pounds, and Tom Creavy won the PGA Championship at 118 pounds. And if you'll check the record, you'll find that those two players weighed 118 pounds," and he says, "it's ironical that you weigh the exact same weight that these two fellows did." But, he said, "You're going to achieve something no player of your weight will ever achieve. You're leading money winner this year. You've won. That will never happen to another golfer again. I want you to know what you've achieved for a golfer your size and weight." I never thought about that. I was too busy trying to compete and win. As I reflect back on my career, I realize that's one of the most significant things that ever happened to me, that I weighed 118 pounds. And incidentally, for you gentlemen that write golf, the average Tour player today weighs almost 200 pounds and is 6-foot tall. So when you're talking about equipment and golf courses and high-tech equipment and golf balls, talk about the size of the players today and their golf swings, that's why they're better. They're stronger, they're bigger, they've got better golf swings. Ernie Els is the perfect example. Ernie Els is about 230, and if I had a body like his, he swings that thing like he's swinging a broom, and you all love it. Well, if I was that big and strong, I would swing it like a broom and hit it about 290, too. My body couldn't do that at 118 pounds. I had to leap off my feet. Sam Snead said I ought to get a two-stroke penalty for high-jumping ever time I hit it.

BOB TOSKI: Well, 117 probably. But these are some of the stories I share with you gentlemen because I'm quite excited about the fact that I am the oldest player in the field and that I'm still able to compete and that I qualified. I didn't play in the Open because I got exempt. I went out and qualified, and I'm doing this for another reason. Arnold and I talked about prostate cancer, which we both have had, and we are an example for people that are our age that have had cancer, and I'm sure a lot of people, like they have in the last two days, have walked up and told me how happy they were that I played in the U.S. Open and that I qualified. And these are all people that have mentioned that they had cancer and so on. So that's quite gratifying when you have all these people coming up to you and telling you that they're happy that you're playing and competing and they haven't seen you for awhile. They're happy to see you back on Tour. So there are a lot of things that people don't realize, but it's a personal thing with me, and I still have been given a great golf swing by the Man upstairs, and it still works good, and I still get a lot of club-hitting speed. I still hit the ball pretty long. And my body still functions quite well, so I'm going to do that as often as I can and enjoy it.

BOB TOSKI: Well, you know, the golf swing is three simple dimensions. You make a swinging force, a turning force, and a shifting force. And how fast your body can turn and shift while you're swinging the club are the three dimensions that create distance, which is my philosophy. My body still is very quick for its size and its age. I move quickly, I shift my weight quickly, I turn my hips quickly, I turn my shoulders quickly, I move the golf club quickly, and it's all relative to the golf swing. If you guys want a golf lesson, I'll give you one today. If you put a driver in your hand and try to hit a driver, you know, they talked today about clearing the left hip and how fast you've got to clear your left hip to hit a golf ball and how fast Tiger Woods cleared his left hip. Your left hip clearance is relative to the speed of the hands and arms delivering the club to the ball. You put a driver in your hand and you try to hit a driver 100 yards, how fast would your body turn? Take a full swing with a driver and hit a driver 100 yards, how fast would your body turn?

BOB TOSKI: Take a driver and hit a driver 200 yards, how fast would your hips turn?

BOB TOSKI: Try to hit it 300 yards, how fast would your hips turn? The hips are turning in relationship to the speed that you're going to generate through the ball with your hands and arms. So you're going to move the ball faster to the point of impact with your hands and arms, faster producers of speed. Your hands, wrists and arms, they produce over 85 percent of all the speed in your golf swing, and Tiger Woods' arm and hand speed is faster than any other player in the history of the game. The cause and the effect part, this is an effect, this is the cause (indiating). The faster the club, you're going to move through the point of impact from the downswing through the swing, the faster the hips have to clear for the hands to catch up and pass through. So, we've got to get our act together when we're talking about what is cause and effect. All I hear is, you've got to clear your hips, you've got to clear your hips. No, you have to shift your weight before you clear your hips. If you clear your hips without shifting your weight, the weight is back on your right foot. Weight must move to support motion. So you're -- I like to deal with fact. I don't like to deal in fantasy. And I aggravate a lot of teachers doing that, but that's my style.

BOB TOSKI: Well, it depends on what I see in front of me. If I've got a wide-open fairway, I'll try to hit it through. If I have a narrow fairway, I won't try to hit it so far. Everything depends on how fast I accelerate a golf club to what I see in front of me. They have 40-yard fairways out here. You better put the ball in the fairway. I'm going to try to put the ball in the fairway and try to have a lie that I can spin the ball with. So I'm not going to be interested in distance until I probably get to 16, 17 and 18 where you really have to let out some shaft if you want to get home in two. Otherwise, 16 is going to be a driving wood for me. 17 is going to be a drive and a long iron or medium iron. 18 is going to be a driver and a wood. And I hit a 3-wood at 16 yesterday. I hit a 3-wood at 18 yesterday, and those holes are playing long. But, you've got to play with 14 clubs in the bag. That's the name of the game. That's why they put 14 in there. If you try to play with a driver, a wedge and a putter -- if you give John Daly a driver, a wedge and a putter, give me 14 clubs, I think I can beat him.

BOB TOSKI: What?

BOB TOSKI: Well, I can hit the ball -- if you give me the right conditions, I can drive the ball 260. That's not a problem. It's putting it where I want to put it. I'm not worried about air mail; I'm worried about the zip code.

BOB TOSKI: I'm not worried about air mail. That means how far you carry the ball. That's the first thing everybody looks at if a guy carries the ball 300 yards in the air, they say, "That's it." But they can't find it.

BOB TOSKI: There's another story for you guys. I know some of you fellows from past years. When Byron Nelson won 18 tournaments in a row -- 18 tournaments, 11 in a row, and Byron and I have been good friends for years. I spent a lot of time with Byron, because he and I became interested in talking about the fundamentals and philosophy of a golf swing. Byron told me that -- I said, "Well, why did you shoot 67 and average 67 the last round?" I think it's -- you know, scoring average was about 68. Probably one of the lowest scoring averages in the history of golf. And the year that he won 11 in a row, he said, Bob, I only drove the ball on Sunday about 250 yards. I averaged about 250. But he said, The reason why I beat all those guys is because I was in the fairway and they were in the rough. And they would be out there 270, but they're in the rough and I'm in the fairway, and I can spin the ball onto the fairway and I can knock the flag down, and you can't try to knock the flag down out of the rough. And, you know, the old story of Nelson was he was in his old -- if they played 36 holes, but Byron simply tried to put the ball in the fairway and he said, "I just tried to find a tempo and a rhythm and put the ball in the fairway. I never let the shaft out too much unless I had plenty of fairway in front of me." He said, "That's why I was a consistent controller of the golf ball."

BOB TOSKI: I prefer to cut it and hook it, because when you turn it upside down -- well, actually, you're talking about putting the back of the club?

BOB TOSKI: Yeah. Well, you turn the back of the club, you start with the back of the club as you get up to reroute the club face and hit it with the -- the key is to cut the ball. If you try to hook it, you close the club face into it, and it's difficult to get the ball in the air. Yes, I do that for a reason, though, to prove that your hands are the most important part of your body and your golf swing. No one part of your body influences your golf swing more than your hands, and if I can take a golf club and turn it and find a ball like that, I can teach you to hold it like this and find it.

BOB TOSKI: There's a simple reason for that.

BOB TOSKI: Well, for me, it wasn't difficult because my body has always been slight, and my entire family was slight of build. My brothers were all - Jack, Ben and Tom - were very slight. I believe I was the lightest of all the brothers. They were all under 150-pound range when they got older. And I've -- I'm 135, the heaviest I've ever been. And I hope I never get any heavier. I feel great. I believe that when you don't have a lot of weight, your body can turn and shift faster so you can, once the club head moves faster, your body can respond to the movement and the speed of the club and can correlate and respond and shift and turn and control that speed. A lot of people that try to hit the ball harder have too much weight in the center of their body can't control. They have to move that center, the more you have to move this and move that. They can't move this to move that. So they don't move this and they're out of sync. So that gentleman back there probably had kind of looked at me. So, weight doesn't always give you that advantage. It depends on how it's proportioned and how it's used. So I've had an advantage being slight and being in good condition because I have quick strength, and I think quick strength is the key to good golf. Hogan had good strength, wasn't a very big guy. Players that are small and need quick strength, your foot speed and leg speed and hip speed, everything has to relate to the speed of the club they're traveling. So, no, I've always had a simple diet. I've always tried to get plenty of rest. But, I think my secret is I've been teaching golf all my life. I'm standing up all day, I'm swinging the golf club, and I'm doing something that I like, and I'm outdoors. And I think that in itself, being a part of teaching the game and helping others try to learn how to play golf and then playing to help myself once in awhile is a good combination.

BOB TOSKI: Well, if you're going by record, I guess you would have to say Nicklaus. Has he won more Majors than anyone?

BOB TOSKI: But the players that influenced me the most that I look at as great players because I guess Jack came after Byron and Ben and Sam, and those were the three players that impressed me more than any players I've ever seen. Playing with them, watching them play, they were electrifying, like Palmer is when he came on in the '60s, and then Nicklaus when he came on after Arnold. The way Hogan played and Nelson played were just, to me, as a young player were amazing because of their ball control and their course management and their ability to handle pressure. And, of course, when Jack came along, he was a different type of player than either of those two. He hit the ball a lot longer, he was the new long carrier of the ball high in the air. He went over the bunkers. Byron and Nelson went around them. They played a different game than these kids do today. They hit the ball so long and so far. Tiger Woods, 320. Remember the old power fade? Golf Digest used to write about a power fade 265, and when Tiger Woods hit that power fade at the 18th hole at the National Amateur, 320 yards, I turned to my wife, I said, "Now that's a power fade." You see they used to talk about power fade being 265, 270, -- articles were written about that, along comes this kid named Tiger Woods and hits a power fade 320 yards. That's a power fade. Nelson and Hogan and Byron -- Byron and Ben and Sam clearly impressed me as players. I thought Nelson when he was -- I don't think anyone will equal Nelson's record of 18 in one year -- the year he won 11 in a row. That kind of speaks for itself. They were all great in their era. Who's the best? It's hard to say.

BOB TOSKI: Well, we love talking about who had the best golf swing. Sam Snead had the best golf swing I've ever seen because it was so natural. His body turned, his golf swing, his arch, his body weight shift was natural. It looked effortless. It looked like Ernie Els'. Ernie comes close to that. Both of them have similar rhythm patterns and arch, and they look effortless in the way they find a golf ball. Hogan was a lasher. Byron was a dipper. Byron had a, you know, he lowered -- he had the modern swing today. As you look at a golf swing, Byron was the first player to swing the club back and feel like you had a herniated wrist on your back swing which they call muscle movement today trying to eliminate excessive wrist motion. Byron was the first player to try to keep the club short of parallel and get a good downward move into the ball and not get past parallel like Hogan would when he first started way beyond parallel, and Daly way beyond parallel. So the golf swing has changed in how they're trying to teach the swing today. They're trying to tighten the swing up a lot more than they used to when we played. The swing was a more fluid a longer swing with a little more wrist motion today they don't want so much of that in the back swing, they want coil around your right leg, turn your shoulders and swing your arms but don't get any wrist cock or very little at the top of your back swing and then move in and go ahead and let it all hang out. But Tiger does that about as good as anybody.

BOB TOSKI: I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.